why you should not bong high

[nelsonmarcelino]

http://detroitwingchun.com/lop2.htm

http://detroitwingchun.com/lopsao1.htm

[couch]

When you demonstrated your Bong Sau at chin-level - you said this was too high.

But what if you're in a pre-contact situation (as I don't like to just enter with a Bong), and somebody goes to strike your face. You don't want to Bong?

Plus, the maxim: the Bong never stays or the Bong should never be seen.

If my opponent's Bong is just hanging out there waiting for me to do something, then heck yes I'm going to get it out of the way.

Plus, if you think that the Bong is weak with straightforward pressure, I feel you're wrong. The Bong is only weak up and down...same as the Lan Sau (hence the nickname of "The Fence"). The Lan and Bong are strong head-on and side to side.

All the "shapes" have their respective strengths and weaknesses and I think that Chi Sau is where you play with this.

One last thing. If you have a "wrong" Bong, then your opponent can attack your ribs with a "higher" Bong because he has a free hand. If you are same-side as him (your left Bong, his right punch), he can't hit you with that right hand without your sensitivity telling you that he disengaged! Hand lost, thrust forward!

It's good for discussion.

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

How many times have i seen people using bong sao in forms and chi sao where the elbow is lower or at the same level as the wrist. (flat)

This is an area we can talk about that needs improvement with regards to Bong Sao.

I couldnt see the vids posted but just for this discussion, to me as long as you have the wrist lower than the elbow (downward slope) height only becomes an issue as a result of the height of your opponent.

If you are touching hands with someone that is much much taller than you you WILL have to raise you Bong higher than your chin !
If your saying that this level is too high then i disagree. (for certain circumstances)

ALSO -
Many actions are weak when certain forces are apllied to them but the genius of our kung fu means that we can (and in fact are wanting to ) change that force back into attack.

Press down my bong - i wont fight it - ill attack with the elbow.
Press in - i wont fight it - i can turn it away and Tan Da. etc tec.

In short -
IMO the height of the bong sao is not as important as the relationship between the heights of the elbow and wrist.

[couch]

Press down my bong - i wont fight it - ill attack with the elbow.
Press in - i wont fight it - i can turn it away and Tan Da. etc tec.

In short -
IMO the height of the bong sao is not as important as the relationship between the heights of the elbow and wrist.

Very good points. Good continuation of the discussion.

There's always redirection of the force and proper positioning according to your opponent.

If you want to wait to download...here's the links for the videos:
http://www.detroitwingchun.com/VIDEOS/lop2.wmv

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/VIDEOS/lopsao1.wmv

I also believe this thread was started because of my comments of the vids in "ghostrider" thread.

Best,
Kenton

[Mr Punch]

Thanks again Nelson and Kenton (for some reason Nelson, I still can't get them from your links, even after waiting).

I'm with Kenton and Liddel on this. The bong should

a) only be there for a second
b) strongest from the front angle (that's why we train stance so much: both linking and delinking).

If it is lopped, great, that's more power to my elbow!

If it's lopped to the side, great, I step round, tan and back in using their momentum.

Otherwise, good basics.

[Phil Redmond]

Here are some examples of Yip Man's bong sau.
PR

[reneritchie]

You can Bong 'high', it's perfectly fine.

Every tool has its risks and its benefits, and problems only arize when these tools are taken out of those contexts. If you understand them, you're good to go...

[Phil Redmond]

You can Bong 'high', it's perfectly fine.

Every tool has its risks and its benefits, and problems only arize when these tools are taken out of those contexts. If you understand them, you're good to go...

Exacto Rene. There is even a Gou Bong Sau which is even higher than the "normal" one.
PR

[YungChun]

There is even a Gou Bong Sau which is even higher than the "normal" one.

Correct, and probably better for intercepting a high gate attack in sparring or fighting. But the standard Bong can be deployed faster from a non ready position IMO because it is led by the elbow, which leads the motion, taking the higher position over the wrist. In my and other's experience if you are just standing there with your arms at your sides and you are surprised you may find yourself doing a standard Bong as a flinch response. The way I was trained, this tendency has asserted itself lots of times, and I find that it's because you can get that elbow up faster than you can get the hand or forearm up for cover.

However, some families have said that Bong should not be used from a non contact or outside situation. While I appreciate how this relates to Bong's major use in redirecting and changing with energy and contact I think it misses the fact that there are different situations and levels of readiness where a standard Bong may just *happen* or where it may be used in conjunction with another hand to deal with great force from an outside and non contact condition or situation.

[Liddel]

Nelson ive seen the vids today and i have to ask.

Dont you train as though you are fighting a good fighter ?

I only ask this as you offer (in the vid) reasons as to why not to bong high, but i have a problem with each example if you have a smart / skilled opponent.

You senario would work against a dummy IMO but not someone of skill.

You first say not to bong high because if a force is applied to the bong it can disrupt your horse and send you backward with your forearm in your face.

My natural reaction would be to turn to tan sao or (my personal fav - elbow)

the other explanations were the same for me, there are actions that are instinctive that should be given.

Bong sao and Tan Sao ARE brother actions.
What do i mean ?
Push down / apply force to my bong sao - i turn to Tan.
Press down / apply force to my Tan Sao i turn to bong.
You caould keen giving force to my Bong and Tan and i could chop and change all day,
In each occasion the force is let go...

One other thing, sometimes we give openings to opponents to lure them in.
Eveytime i have my Bong out, high or low, i am aware of the empty space below it so my guarn is ready and waiting ( in my mind ) for the certain movements felt through our bridge giving the GREEN LIGHT to guarn da.

one other prob i have from the vid is when your wu is to close to the bong and the opponent grabs your wu crossing your hands and pulling your arms down, you let him punch ypu as if you are dead or cant react but you can and in fact should bong with the other ( wu ) hand to maintain position and space. the action would resemble Kwan Sao.

Now you may know this and this is just a vid for newer students to the art which is cool, but for people that have reached Chum Kui level i would call it dead Ku Fu or to be more diplomatic it is co-operative at best.

Im just discussing here - i DO appreciate you sharing

[Mr Punch]

I'd assumed he is just going over a couple of very basic concepts...

it's not a drill and it's not training, it's a demo, right?

Personally I don't use bong much anyway outside of chi sao or the first movement of a salvo in sparring/free drills. High bong is fine too, but again low percentage as a deflection and I only use it to jam them up and redirect force back against the attack.

[bcbernam777]

Use Bong Sau where it is needed

[ghostofwingchun]

Use Bong Sau where it is needed

LOL! Yes . . . and invest your money only in stocks that are going up! It is the where-it-is-needed part that is the rub . . . once we get that down . . . like being able to tell which stocks are going up . . . the rest is easy.

Thanks,

Ghost

[reneritchie]

Phil - My face has loved it some Gao Bong protection from time to time

Some Bong Sao spiral into an attack to intercept it's specific line. But in application, what the specific line of attack is can not always be initially obvious, and thus you'll need to cover a range of area, whch is where some other Bong Sao come in (such as a couple of the ones in Chum Kiu -- least the version I learned).

For example, if you turn around, see fast, incoming movement in your peripheral vision, and your instincts tell you it's an @$$ whoopin' inbound, there most likely will not be sufficient time to figure out what limb/weapon is even attacking you, much less where exactly it will cross before impact. So, a horizontal, vertical, or diagonally sweeping Bong Sao can cover all that space until contact is made, and then tactile reflex can take over and adapt into a better shape to counter.

Since 'Bong Sao Doesn't Stop or Stay', it does that quite well.

[Keng Geng]

The problem I see in most demonstrations, is that the opponent, the supposed "threat" is not presenting a threat at all. The 2nd problem is that the supposed threats are in Wing Chun form, i.e. the opponent is presenting a Wing Chun response which is not likely to be a realistic response from a potential aggressor. What I was seeing in the demonstrations is that at any point, regardless of what the smaller guy was doing, that big guy could have just bear hugged him. Yes, the punches can come flying in, but many guys can take punches to the face. The "whoever gets there first" and assuming those punches are going to put that guy down, doesn't fly.

As with everything in Winch Chun, and as suggested in some of the responses in this thread, there's a response for everything. Each techniques has its advantages and holes. Based on the way most punches come in you're not likely going to use the bong as demonstrated. It's most likely to come in on a higher line or a lower line.

And as suggested, bong never stays; neither does any technique in Wing Chun. So the pressure on the high bong theory don't stick.