why you should not bong high

[anerlich]

Abutebaris modo subjunctivo. Heus, modo itera omnia quae mihi nunc nuper narravisti, sed nunc Anglice?

"You've been misusing the subjunctive. Listen, would you repeat everything you just told me, only this time say it in English? "

Wow ... you can avoid addressing the issues in two languages.

* yawn *

[anerlich]

Besides a Biu Jee seems to works much better at stopping a shot to the head

In general, that's true. However, there are some angles from which a punch can come for which bil sao/jee is a poor defence choice, e.g. you are standing facing a counter at a bar and the guy on your left throws a left hook at your face. A tight bon followed by a reverse elbow to his face may work better in that situation.

You may have to modify bon slightly from the way it's done in SLT, but then it's a concept not a technique, as Nelson already pointed out

[reneritchie]

Initial position is also important. You won't always have an arm chambered back ready to Biu Jee or Lan Sao out to stop an attack. You might already have the arm extended or even engaged, so you need a cycle of tactics you can change to in order to keep the strategy progressing.

In some situations, due to the initial position of your arm when a punch is slammed towards your head, Gao Bong/Pao Bong might be the optimal response (the response that achieves the most with the least).

[nelsonmarcelino]

I think what Nelson is trying to point out is that the high bong is not as structurally sound as a low bong. I have found that the energy does not go into the ground as well with a high bong. Besides a Biu Jee seems to works much better at stopping a shot to the head especially if the person your are fighting with weighs 250-400 lbs and is over 6 feet tall. Biu jee seems to be more structurally sound than a high bong to stop the head shot. Besides techniques are only good if you have a strong foundation to support the technique. Without this foundation then you only have flowery hands and it does not matter how high your bong sao or any technique goes there will not be any structural support to back it up. Without any structural support it does not matter what alignments one uses, without structurall support there is not much if any body unity.

The pyramids of Egypt would not have lasted for thousnads of years if it were not built on a structurally sound foudation. Especialy when there are corridors that run throughout the whole pyramid.

Excellent post.
There are several ways to stop a head shot: you can use jam sao, upper gan sao, mun sao, etc. Also within bil jee there are various elbow strike motions and other movements than can be applied at various close distances (e.g shoulder rubbing shoulder of opponent). All these movements have proper structural support behind them and employ leverage concepts to power the motions. Body unity is the key here.

For bong sao elbow position is important. From a square on position pressure received on the bong structure follows the mechanical principles of a truss. The upper arm and elbow are stabilized while ulner rotation drilling forward with a corkscrew defines the correct motion of bong.

Many use bong with a lifting motion. This is incorrect. The Bong should be applied with forward energy. Proper angles and structure are important as otherwise a weak bong will collapse under pressure.

[nelsonmarcelino]

Yes perhaps but we are discussing Bong Sao's height - so i used a context in which your height argument does not apply IMO



But in the vid your Bong was not at the right height for a mid level attack Unless im mistaken .....Regardless

Nelson - for the intrest of perhaps discovering each others POV, how about you mention specifically HOW you use Bong So that one could understand the context in which you apply your point about NOT using a HIGH BONG.

It does seem to me though that if you use lower Bong for LOWER LEVEL attacks then it only stands to reason NOT TO BONG HIGH - for you will miss the incomming attack and get HIT
Then one could title this thread "STATE THE OBVIOUS"

See my previous post.

[JPinAZ]

Excellent post.
There are several ways to stop a head shot: you can use jam sao, upper gan sao, mun sao, etc. Also within bil jee there are various elbow strike motions and other movements than can be applied at various close distances (e.g shoulder rubbing shoulder of opponent). All these movements have proper structural support behind them and employ leverage concepts to power the motions. Body unity is the key here.

For bong sao elbow position is important. From a square on position pressure received on the bong structure follows the mechanical principles of a truss. The upper arm and elbow are stabilized while ulner rotation drilling forward with a corkscrew defines the correct motion of bong.

Many use bong with a lifting motion. This is incorrect. The Bong should be applied with forward energy. Proper angles and structure are important as otherwise a weak bong will collapse under pressure.

Hello all (this is my first time posting on this forum)

It is somewhat suprising when I read "this is correct" or "this is incorrect". This assumes one to know everything about all lineages of WC. That's a pretty tall order

I will say this: I have been taught 2 different bongs so far, each with different uses and energies. One has a penetrating energy used from mid reference up to shoulder hieght (in-out motion) we call a Hok Bong (elbow and wrist parallel at shoulder hieght).
The other bong uses an up-down recieving/redirecting motion which we call a ying bong (with elbow higher than wrist). In my view, they both have thier place, depending on the initial hieght of the attack (lower/higher), the direction of the attack (upward/forward, straight forward, etc) as well as our positions. Also, energy on the bridge (if already asstablished) plays a factor. They both work, when used in the correct timeframe, and obviously, they both fail when used in the wrong timeframe.

So, I guess I can see where you might assume one type of bong can work where another type of bong cannot. But isn't it going a little far saying something is 'incorrect' without giving an example or context, or, not fully understanding someone elses?
I can give an example showing where your description of a bong would fail - does that make it 'wrong'?

Jonathan

[nelsonmarcelino]

Hello all (this is my first time posting on this forum)

It is somewhat suprising when I read "this is correct" or "this is incorrect". This assumes one to know everything about all lineages of WC. That's a pretty tall order

I will say this: I have been taught 2 different bongs so far, each with different uses and energies. One has a penetrating energy used from mid reference up to shoulder hieght (in-out motion) we call a Hok Bong (elbow and wrist parallel at shoulder hieght).
The other bong uses an up-down recieving/redirecting motion which we call a ying bong (with elbow higher than wrist). In my view, they both have thier place, depending on the initial hieght of the attack (lower/higher), the direction of the attack (upward/forward, straight forward, etc) as well as our positions. Also, energy on the bridge (if already asstablished) plays a factor. They both work, when used in the correct timeframe, and obviously, they both fail when used in the wrong timeframe.

So, I guess I can see where you might assume one type of bong can work where another type of bong cannot. But isn't it going a little far saying something is 'incorrect' without giving an example or context, or, not fully understanding someone elses?
I can give an example showing where your description of a bong would fail - does that make it 'wrong'?

Jonathan

I did give an example. Watch the video clip!

[nelsonmarcelino]

But in the vid your Bong was not at the right height for a mid level attack Unless im mistaken .....Regardless

Liddel, if you were paying attention to the video it is to demonstrate the problems that arise when executing a high bong (with elbow higher than wrist). That bong as you mentioned does not cover a mid level attack. And hence the reason why we in the Leung Sheung/Woo Fai Ching Lineage do not use a bong that way.

Other people mention using other versions of high bong. I would rather refer to those as high fook because in that situation the wrist is higher than the elbow.

Also an idiot wc sifu was once telling me that at the end of bil jee there is a thrusting up movement referred as goh bong. And that bong was used to block high round house kicks thrown to the head. A lot of misinterpretations of bong.

[couch]

Liddel, if you were paying attention to the video it is to demonstrate the problems that arise when executing a high bong (with elbow higher than wrist). That bong as you mentioned does not cover a mid level attack. And hence the reason why we in the Leung Sheung/Woo Fai Ching Lineage do not use a bong that way.

Other people mention using other versions of high bong. I would rather refer to those as high fook because in that situation the wrist is higher than the elbow.

Also an idiot wc sifu was once telling me that at the end of bil jee there is a thrusting up movement referred as goh bong. And that bong was used to block high round house kicks thrown to the head. A lot of misinterpretations of bong.

When you demonstrated your "too-high-bong," it seemed to me that it was collapsed. Just like the Lan Sau, your Bong is there to make space for you to work.

So I disagree with your reason why you shouldn't perform a higher bong. If i'm in a pre-contact situation and my opponent throws a straight to the head...I'm using a higher Bong (etc)! I've never had any problems using it this way or any other way. When my wrist is about neck level, the elbow has to be higher than the shoulder because of structural (and not getting your block knocked off) reasons.

I'd like to fix your Bong, Nelson, so that you're doing it right.

Oh. And why don't you give us better examples of blocking a roundhouse to the head. There are many ways to do this and a Goh Bong *might* work...depending on footwork. Most defenses work only depending on footwork.

Stolen quote: "Your lineage/mileage may vary."

Peace.

[nelsonmarcelino]

coach

High bong is not stable therefore it might collapse as you mentioned.

As stated before I don't use bong to block face shots. I would welcome the opportunity to show you this in person.

I don't recommend using a bong to block a roundhouse to the head, so why should i give you a better example?

[couch]

coach

High bong is not stable therefore it might collapse as you mentioned.

It will not and does not. I'm just saying that you can't say that ALL bong will collapse. Cause mine doesn't. High or not.

[JPinAZ]

I did give an example. Watch the video clip!

fair enough. I have watched it. And I see one instance where ONE type of bong can work (where another might not).
In your first video, you show how a 'static' high bong can be collapsed, challenged, etc. I guss this could be the case if you are just looking at a static high bong with no up-down energy and just a rigid structure. Maybe this is your only understanding of how a 'high bong' is used, but it is not mine.
Also, in this example, you and your opponent are squared up face-to-face. Now, the high bong may have a different effect if your horse was open and with propper energies and not static/rigid. Also, I can give you an example where you can make contat with both the high bong and the man sau that cannot be challeged so easily..
I also see in your second video where you are doing a lap sau drill, and in one instance, you press against your opponents 'low bong' and he also is moved back - the same way you depicted a high bong not working (just what I observed). Also, in the drill, the punches do not seem to be challenging the bong, nor do they seem to be driven upward toward the face (and you actually explain how the punch is only forward). What happens when you opponent strikes upward to your face and you are using your low bong?
(just looking for clarification and to better understand where you are coming from)

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Cobra Commander]

I personally feel a bong can be applied "high" (if you want to call it that) in the right situation. It will just come naturally if one conditions himself/herself with the drills and such. Same with a lower bong. It all depends how your attacker is attacking you.

Why not learn different ways of applying the bong and other techniques? Do we have to limit ourselves to exclusive ways of doing something? There are so many types of people in this world who will not attack you the same way the next person will attack you. Who knows if he will attack you high or low? From the side or even from behind? What if he is constantly moving and makes it hard for you to hit him? Maybe in the last second of his attack to your throat or head your only second nature resort will be a high bong?

a lower bong is just a piece of the bigger picture, a higher bong is another piece of the same picture too. Why exclude one over the other in training when both may come in handy sometime in your life?

[bcbernam777]

Part of the problem I have with the discussion of where a Bong Sau should or shouldn't be placed is that it yields the thinker to an if/and mindset. In wing chun we learn the system only to eventually become free of the system, to allow fluidity and responsivness in any given situation. The process of combat is fast, furious and fluid, you dont have a game plan you simply respond to your oponant, you follow him, and use his tools against him. This means that your oponant can attack at any angle, any degree, and at any range of force, which only gives you the time to simply respond. There are thousands of possible responses in a given situation and it is up to you to neurologically resopond in a a nano second to what is happening. I find that the if/and mentality lacks this essentialo fluidity, and freezes your mind at crucial moments, which is why I said earlier, if you need it high then do it high, if you need it low then do it low, wherever you need it do it.

[Cobra Commander]

Part of the problem I have with the discussion of where a Bong Sau should or shouldn't be placed is that it yields the thinker to an if/and mindset. In wing chun we learn the system only to eventually become free of the system, to allow fluidity and responsivness in any given situation. The process of combat is fast, furious and fluid, you dont have a game plan you simply respond to your oponant, you follow him, and use his tools against him. This means that your oponant can attack at any angle, any degree, and at any range of force, which only gives you the time to simply respond. There are thousands of possible responses in a given situation and it is up to you to neurologically resopond in a a nano second to what is happening. I find that the if/and mentality lacks this essentialo fluidity, and freezes your mind at crucial moments, which is why I said earlier, if you need it high then do it high, if you need it low then do it low, wherever you need it do it.

I think part of the problem with this debate is that some are arguing whether or not a "high" bong has forward energy or not. Depends on whether you were taught to utilize foward energy or not while doing a technique that is downward or upward.
I personally would utilize forward momentum when doing a "high" bong or say even a lower body technique.

Just because you are travelling upward or downward doesn't mean you cannot move forward too.