why you should not bong high

[Phil Redmond]

Phil - My face has loved it some Gao Bong protection from time to time

Some Bong Sao spiral into an attack to intercept it's specific line. But in application, what the specific line of attack is can not always be initially obvious, and thus you'll need to cover a range of area, whch is where some other Bong Sao come in (such as a couple of the ones in Chum Kiu -- least the version I learned).

For example, if you turn around, see fast, incoming movement in your peripheral vision, and your instincts tell you it's an @$$ whoopin' inbound, there most likely will not be sufficient time to figure out what limb/weapon is even attacking you, much less where exactly it will cross before impact. So, a horizontal, vertical, or diagonally sweeping Bong Sao can cover all that space until contact is made, and then tactile reflex can take over and adapt into a better shape to counter.

Since 'Bong Sao Doesn't Stop or Stay', it does that quite well.

Rene, I concur regarding the gou bong sau. The Daaih (low) bong can also save you from getting punched or kicked to the solar plexus or abdomen.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I've studied with 8 WC sifus and four of them studied with Yip Man. I was always taught that the bong was never used square on in a combat situation but at an angle. So any force applied to the bong would be deflected to the side and not into the center of gravity. Also, the bong wouldn't stay in place long enough for your side to be open. Especially if the person has good contact reflexes.
PR

[Liddel]

Phil said -
"I've studied with 8 WC sifus and four of them studied with Yip Man. I was always taught that the bong was never used square on in a combat situation but at an angle."

Phil i too have being told this by my Sifu, IMO this is one case as pointed out by KG, good for chi sao but not specifically for fighting. Although the situation can arise.

During Lop Sao drills where i train, we are face to face when giving Bong Sao (so its square), but from time to time we also change the drill to that of how my Sifu used to train the most which is the Lop Sao drill with your horse Turned to the side so the bong is not face to face (like you mention).

We train both ways but i notice at least in my area and from the vids ive seen on the net, Most people practice the Lop Sao Drill face to face with the sqaure Bong.

Interesting

[Phil Redmond]

Phil said -
"I've studied with 8 WC sifus and four of them studied with Yip Man. I was always taught that the bong was never used square on in a combat situation but at an angle."

Phil i too have being told this by my Sifu, IMO this is one case as pointed out by KG, good for chi sao but not specifically for fighting. Although the situation can arise.

During Lop Sao drills where i train, we are face to face when giving Bong Sao (so its square), but from time to time we also change the drill to that of how my Sifu used to train the most which is the Lop Sao drill with your horse Turned to the side so the bong is not face to face (like you mention).

We train both ways but i notice at least in my area and from the vids ive seen on the net, Most people practice the Lop Sao Drill face to face with the sqaure Bong.

Interesting

I've been taught that we do our forms and "some" aspects of chi sau square on so that we'll know where our arms should be in relationship to our center. Later we learn to use angles so as not to meet force with force. If you'll notice the bong sau on the dummy isn't used square on regardless of lineage. It's used to angle/deflect an attack away from you. The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force. You learn this from your contact reflex training in chi sau.
PR

[fiamacho]

Everything is relative to where your opponent is at the time that their attack is thrown . What we need to remember is that all fights occur in the "grey zone" nothing is black and white.

Due to my TWC background I normally fight in the Side Fighting Stance there have been times when I have used the Bong Sao from the Neutral Stance as a jab could of been thrown while I was in the process of changing my stance.

Yes there are times when you bong high and obviously you may need to apply low as well, there is no "hard and fast rule", in my time as a Bouncer this was moist certainly the case.

I see the bong sau as been one of the most effective defensive/counter attacking techniques in the Wing Chun arsenal, would I leave it hanging out there NO this is just plain stupid and makes very little sense to do so.

Bong Sau is extremely effective due to its' versatility, it is not a technique that should be confined to mindless lineage debate.

[Mr Punch]

ttt for Nelson... noticed you'd been back on and was wondering if you were going to join in your own party!?

No aggro, just want to hear your opinion.

[Kapten Klutz]

The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force.

Thanks for a very helpful comment. I'm new to the style and it's explanations like this that help make things gel.

One of the nice things about being a beginner is getting that little lightbulb pretty often since there are so many basics to be learned.

[canglong]

originally posted by phil Redmond(originally from Brooklyn)
I've been taught that we do our forms and "some" aspects of chi sau square on so that we'll know where our arms should be in relationship to our center. Later we learn to use angles so as not to meet force with force. If you'll notice the bong sau on the dummy isn't used square on regardless of lineage. It's used to angle/deflect an attack away from you. The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force. You learn this from your contact reflex training in chi sau.

Redmond Sifu,
Good points indeed my question is in the 1st demo of the bong being knocked backwards did you see the incoming energy going to the center or was it the shoulder? To me it was the shoulder and it makes me wonder why the incoming energy was going to the shoulder and not the center.

[Mr Punch]

Good points Phil.

My mine dislike of doing bong high are that:

1) it's very difficult to time against any punch that isn't straight or staying out.
2) it opens up your flank.

The ways to avoid this are:

1) angle off. As Phil said. IMO you should very very rarely ever do anything completely squared straight anyway, unless it's levelling off from a previous angle. You should always turn your hips.

2) Don't leave it up. It's always good to go straight into a tan, corkscrew punch, fak or elbow.

Just a couple more thoughts.

[Phil Redmond]

Good points Phil.

My mine dislike of doing bong high are that:

1) it's very difficult to time against any punch that isn't straight or staying out.
2) it opens up your flank.

The ways to avoid this are:

1) angle off. As Phil said. IMO you should very very rarely ever do anything completely squared straight anyway, unless it's levelling off from a previous angle. You should always turn your hips.

2) Don't leave it up. It's always good to go straight into a tan, corkscrew punch, fak or elbow.

Just a couple more thoughts.

One technique we use against a round kick to the head is a kwan sau. It has to be hign enough to stop the head kick.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Redmond Sifu,
Good points indeed my question is in the 1st demo of the bong being knocked backwards did you see the incoming energy going to the center or was it the shoulder? To me it was the shoulder and it makes me wonder why the incoming energy was going to the shoulder and not the center.

I haven't seen the clip in a while and I really don't remember.
PR

[canglong]

I haven't seen the clip in a while and I really don't remember.

Redmond Sifu,
No worries it took me 3 different computers before I even got it play and thinking about it one doesn't necassarily have to view the clip to grasp your point of view on it.

The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force.

[SAAMAG]

One technique we use against a round kick to the head is a kwan sau. It has to be hign enough to stop the head kick.
PR

Didn't we have a huge discussion about blocking round kicks with the kwan/gwun sao? It has always been my experience (with thai fighters and good round kickers) that this wasn't the best approach. But then I don't want to bring back the dead....this comment just reminded me of the conversation.

Personally, I think the first video's theories are based on a false application of the bong, and though it addresses what seem to be valid points, they would only be valid with an improper use (or timing) of the bong.

[Phil Redmond]

Didn't we have a huge discussion about blocking round kicks with the kwan/gwun sao? It has always been my experience (with thai fighters and good round kickers) that this wasn't the best approach. But then I don't want to bring back the dead....this comment just reminded me of the conversation. . . . . . . .

I remember the discussion. If you train something well enough it will work. We train in the kwan sau method against good kickers. I personally have used it in full contact matches. I first learned to use it in Duncan Leung's school in the 70's and again from William Cheung. It works well for me and other people that use it.
PR

[bcbernam777]

I remember the discussion. If you train something well enough it will work. We train in the kwan sau method against good kickers. I personally have used it in full contact matches. I first learned to use it in Duncan Leung's school in the 70's and again from William Cheung. It works well for me and other people that use it.
PR

Interception against the inside leg of the kicker (it is usually the part they have not trained or conditioned)