why you should not bong high

[SAAMAG]

I prefer to intercept the upper leg with my body and simultaneously punch them. Seems more efficient to me. Better yet, intercept them and toss them on their @ss. Even more efficient.

But as not to hijack the thread....high bong has it's strengths and weaknesses just any other technique does. Proper timing and placement ensures minimal loss with the highest return of the "investment."

[Roy D. Anthony]

Now it is my understanding that the high bong everyone is referring to is the commonly done bong just done higher than the shoulder line. For what it's worth, goi bong sao does not even look like that, what it does look like is a high fook or a bent Biu. That is what is considered to be high bong. Also proving that you should not do high bong because certain techniqies can be defeated is not a good approach to Wing Chun. Rather, one should add this knowledge to their arsenal.

Hope this Helps.

[canglong]

Also proving that you should not do high bong because certain techniqies can be defeated is not a good approach to Wing Chun. Rather, one should add this knowledge to their arsenal.

Roy, excellent point couldn't agree more.

[anerlich]

Yes, that was a good point.

Every technique has a counter, or probably several. But a well executed technique requires a much better counter. Practise the technique, experience the counters, and then learn how to counter the counters.

The approach of saying, "well that can be countered so I'll drop it" leads to the reductio ad absurdum (sp) of droppoing every technique because none of them are uncounterable.

[nelsonmarcelino]

Now it is my understanding that the high bong everyone is referring to is the commonly done bong just done higher than the shoulder line. For what it's worth, goi bong sao does not even look like that, what it does look like is a high fook or a bent Biu. That is what is considered to be high bong. Also proving that you should not do high bong because certain techniqies can be defeated is not a good approach to Wing Chun. Rather, one should add this knowledge to their arsenal.

Hope this Helps.

High bong with elbow above shoulder line is not as structurally stable as bong with elbow held about solar plexus height. When you receive force with high bong you mostly use upper back muscle and scapula to withstand brunt of received force. Lower bong allows whole body to support bong structure. Try a simple experiment. Try to have someone lay down on your high bong -- it will be harder to support someone this way than a lower bong. If you do a high bong then the saying bong should not remain defineately applies

[nelsonmarcelino]

Yes, that was a good point.

Every technique has a counter, or probably several. But a well executed technique requires a much better counter. Practise the technique, experience the counters, and then learn how to counter the counters.

The approach of saying, "well that can be countered so I'll drop it" leads to the reductio ad absurdum (sp) of droppoing every technique because none of them are uncounterable.

Wing Chun is a conceptual/principles driven art--not a technique based one. It is futile to train to have counters for counters. When you train with a technique based mindset what do you do when you are faced with a technique you have never seen?

[Liddel]

High bong with elbow above shoulder line is not as structurally stable as bong with elbow held about solar plexus height. When you receive force with high bong you mostly use upper back muscle and scapula to withstand brunt of received force. Lower bong allows whole body to support bong structure. Try a simple experiment. Try to have someone lay down on your high bong -- it will be harder to support someone this way than a lower bong.

This all makes sence Nelson untill you apply it to the real world.
The purpose of Bong is not to support an incomming force like mentioned in your "TEST". Turning and stepping dicipates the force away from you.

1) If someone leaned on my bong, all one would have to do is turn or step away and the opponent would fall to the ground by your rationale (if they are stupid and dont change to the sit).

2) Just for curiousities sake, what do you do when facing an opponent taller than yourself with regard to the bong ?

In this situation IMO your Bong at solar plexis height would allow room for the opponents arm/fist to reach your face.
Or do you only fight people your own height and weight ?

Wing Chun is a conceptual/principles driven art--not a technique based one

Your right but concepts have boundaries, which if crossed break the concept down

The only thing that needs to stay constant with regard to Bong Sao IMHO is the gravity effect - the wrist MUST be lower than the elbow. If that rule applies then the elbow can (and should be with much taller opponents) higher than the shoulder.

[GungFuHillbilly]

Try a simple experiment. Try to have someone lay down on your high bong -- it will be harder to support someone this way than a lower bong. If you do a high bong then the saying bong should not remain defineately applies

The context of the bong sau motion is not about stopping an oncoming force as much as it is about deflecting it.

And if you are using upper back and scapula to support a high bong...I would have to wonder if you have any body unity or have strong links connecting your upper and lower body.

Try this...have a mack truck speed towards you at 90mph -- it will be harder to stop with a centerline punch than if you act according to context...

-GFH

[anerlich]

Wing Chun is a conceptual/principles driven art--not a technique based one.

I guess you must feel pretty stupid having started a thread about the right or wrong execution of a particular Wing Chun TECHNIQUE then, huh?

IMO it's both, like the wave/particle theory of electromagnetic radiation, if a may borrow a marginally applicable scientific analogy the way Hendrik does.

High bong with elbow above shoulder line is not as structurally stable as bong with elbow held about solar plexus height.

Perhaps, but neither is the strongest way to hold your shoulder joint.

Getting hit in the face because your bong was too low doesn't do a lot for your combat effectiveness either.

[nelsonmarcelino]

I never said the purpose of the bong was to support an incoming force. I said try an experiment to see which position a bong has better structural support.

1) see above

2)
I use bong only to cover torso level shots.
There are other things you can do to stop a fist from reaching your face than having to do bong.

The consensus around here seems to be to use bong to cover a face shot; I don't use it that way.

[nelsonmarcelino]

I guess you must feel pretty stupid having started a thread about the right or wrong execution of a particular Wing Chun TECHNIQUE then, huh?

IMO it's both, like the wave/particle theory of electromagnetic radiation, if a may borrow a marginally applicable scientific analogy the way Hendrik does.



Perhaps, but neither is the strongest way to hold your shoulder joint.

Getting hit in the face because your bong was too low doesn't do a lot for your combat effectiveness either.

Abutebaris modo subjunctivo. Heus, modo itera omnia quae mihi nunc nuper narravisti, sed nunc Anglice?

"You've been misusing the subjunctive. Listen, would you repeat everything you just told me, only this time say it in English? "

[reneritchie]

IMHO, WCK is an overarching conceptual strategy wherein many technical tactics are presented as idealized incarnations of the conceptual strategy.

Every tactical technique will have a benefit/risk profile.

However, saying certain back muscles or alignments can do this or that, IMHO, is not as good a way to look at things as figuring out which aligments are better for those tactical techniques.

You can say a "Sun" character punch is bad because it uses purely shoulder and elbow power. However, does this mean the vertical punch is 'bad', or that there may be a better way to power the vertical punch? (not tensing the shoulders and letting the horse, intercostals, etc. link for power).

And is a high bong structurally weak, or is it being used to clash with force as opposed to slice through force?

Often, the tactical techniques which idealize the conceptual strategy of WCK have gone through many generations of testing and proving, and before any are thrown out, its usually good to explore them enough to figure out how they work, so you're throwing out one screw driver for a better screw driver, not because you're trying and failing to use it like a hammer.

[canglong]

Nelson,
What you might want to do is start a thread inquiring why others advocate a "high" bong so that those differences might be highlighted and some kind of mutual understanding can be reached. There are probably just as many videos on the internet advocating a "high" bong so the videos are not the end of the discussion but merely the beginning. Though you or your lineage may not use this particular technique some of the replies you receive from another thread advocating the use of a "high" bong might surprise you.

[WingChunTao]

I think what Nelson is trying to point out is that the high bong is not as structurally sound as a low bong. I have found that the energy does not go into the ground as well with a high bong. Besides a Biu Jee seems to works much better at stopping a shot to the head especially if the person your are fighting with weighs 250-400 lbs and is over 6 feet tall. Biu jee seems to be more structurally sound than a high bong to stop the head shot. Besides techniques are only good if you have a strong foundation to support the technique. Without this foundation then you only have flowery hands and it does not matter how high your bong sao or any technique goes there will not be any structural support to back it up. Without any structural support it does not matter what alignments one uses, without structurall support there is not much if any body unity.

The pyramids of Egypt would not have lasted for thousnads of years if it were not built on a structurally sound foudation. Especialy when there are corridors that run throughout the whole pyramid.

[Liddel]

I use bong only to cover torso level shots.
There are other things you can do to stop a fist from reaching your face than having to do bong.

Yes perhaps but we are discussing Bong Sao's height - so i used a context in which your height argument does not apply IMO

The consensus around here seems to be to use bong to cover a face shot; I don't use it that way.

But in the vid your Bong was not at the right height for a mid level attack Unless im mistaken .....Regardless

Nelson - for the intrest of perhaps discovering each others POV, how about you mention specifically HOW you use Bong So that one could understand the context in which you apply your point about NOT using a HIGH BONG.

It does seem to me though that if you use lower Bong for LOWER LEVEL attacks then it only stands to reason NOT TO BONG HIGH - for you will miss the incomming attack and get HIT
Then one could title this thread "STATE THE OBVIOUS"