why you should not bong high

[Cobra Commander]

Part of the problem I have with the discussion of where a Bong Sau should or shouldn't be placed is that it yields the thinker to an if/and mindset. In wing chun we learn the system only to eventually become free of the system, to allow fluidity and responsivness in any given situation. The process of combat is fast, furious and fluid, you dont have a game plan you simply respond to your oponant, you follow him, and use his tools against him. This means that your oponant can attack at any angle, any degree, and at any range of force, which only gives you the time to simply respond. There are thousands of possible responses in a given situation and it is up to you to neurologically resopond in a a nano second to what is happening. I find that the if/and mentality lacks this essentialo fluidity, and freezes your mind at crucial moments, which is why I said earlier, if you need it high then do it high, if you need it low then do it low, wherever you need it do it.

I think part of the problem with this debate is that some are arguing whether or not a "high" bong has forward energy or not. Depends on whether you were taught to utilize foward energy or not while doing a technique that is downward or upward.
I personally would utilize forward momentum when doing a "high" bong or say even a lower body technique.

Just because you are travelling upward or downward doesn't mean you cannot move forward too.

[bcbernam777]

Just because you are travelling upward or downward doesn't mean you cannot move forward too.

True, this is the development of the YJKYM, the forward energy must be and can be behind every single hand in Wing Chun, otherwise why does the Sui Lum Tao exist. So in sayig this you are dead on target. I think part of the problem comes when people understand the theory of forward force but are unable to put the theory into practice

[jmdrake]

In general, that's true. However, there are some angles from which a punch can come for which bil sao/jee is a poor defence choice, e.g. you are standing facing a counter at a bar and the guy on your left throws a left hook at your face. A tight bon followed by a reverse elbow to his face may work better in that situation.

You may have to modify bon slightly from the way it's done in SLT, but then it's a concept not a technique, as Nelson already pointed out

I can't imagine how that would work.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[anerlich]

I can't imagine how that would work.

Too bad for you, I guess.

Imagine him standing facing your left shoulder, throwing a left at your face. Raise you left elbow. forearm pointing down about forty five degrees, right forearm, above and parallel to it, similar to the cross or European defense in boxing. His punch is taken on your forearms, *ideally* you grab his wrist/forearm with your right hand and shove the reverse elbow into his face.

Yes, there are other things you could do. Yes, you are open to a shovel hook from his right. But your real mistake was letting him get the punch off before you turned to face him.

[Liddel]

Many use bong with a lifting motion. This is incorrect. The Bong should be applied with forward energy. Proper angles and structure are important as otherwise a weak bong will collapse under pressure.

A Bong With a lifting motion is NOT Incorrect - Bong Has MANY applications - amoung others - I find this statement CLOSE MINDED , IMO.
By your rationale - SO MUCH FOR CHI SAO - This is but one application of a rising Bong.
Please tell me how you and others that agree apply foward energy to a Bong Say if covering while Retreating, your stepping back while applying bong in this situation has no foward energy but mine would have torque from a turning forearm, ( because Bong should have more than one energy at work) so therefore would have the desired affect, diverting the energy away from me.

Any action will collapse under preasure, this is the boundary of every action.

A tree will bend in a strong wind letting the force on its branches GO, however apply a strong enough wind ( say in cyclone / hurricane ) and it can be ripped out of the ground !

If you want to talk about not using a high bong because it's not as stucturally strong as a lower bong as you mention then Fine - I agree Nelson -

However saying NOT to use it because its weaker than if used in another way, is removing it from a fighting context where you have to make the best of a bad situation.

I guess the be all and end all from my POV is - that if i was given a shot from a taller opponent and A high Bong NATURALLY came out ( oops my mistake - damm it should have been lower ) I would still have an opportunity to survive the attack, and eb and flow - roll with the punches - in that DYNAMIC situation.

Maybe my bong would collapse under the preasure you mention, but maybe i would let it collapse into another action like an elbow from the outside, or a center punch - negating your point and the title of this thread "Why you should NOT Bong High"

This is just MO Nelson..... in the interest of this discussion

[Phil Redmond]

The GOU bong sau I was refering to doesn't look like the "typical" bong sau.
Also, the bong sau is used with a lifting and forward motion according to a "few" prominent WC Sifu.
PR

[jmdrake]

Too bad for you, I guess.

Imagine him standing facing your left shoulder, throwing a left at your face. Raise you left elbow. forearm pointing down about forty five degrees, right forearm, above and parallel to it, similar to the cross or European defense in boxing. His punch is taken on your forearms, *ideally* you grab his wrist/forearm with your right hand and shove the reverse elbow into his face.

You mean like a boxing cover?

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

In that case, why not use....a boxing cover?

Anyway, I've always heard of the bong being used as a "deflection" and it sounds like you're using it as a "block". Have you tested this much?

Yes, there are other things you could do. Yes, you are open to a shovel hook from his right. But your real mistake was letting him get the punch off before you turned to face him.

I suppose. But then it's your scenario.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Phil Redmond]

I can't imagine how that would work.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Against a hook punch? Maybe not. Against a round punch yes. I PM'd you a clip showing bong against a round punch.
PR

[anerlich]

In that case, why not use....a boxing cover?

I did say it was like a European defense, which is a fairly standard boxing term, also called the cross defense.

You know, there is some commonality between boxing and Wing Chun if you look.

Anyway, I've always heard of the bong being used as a "deflection"

Is it possible there are some learned opinions on this subject you have yet to hear?

and it sounds like you're using it as a "block".

It'd be nice to use everything in WC as a deflection, fact is sometimes circumstances make it into the next best thing, e.g. a block. I'll choose having keyboard warriors chide me for blocking as opposed to getting hit in the face, as long as that's OK with you of course.

Have you tested this much?

I haven't gone into bars and stood side on to guys in the hope they'd attack me with a hook, but, yeah, I've tested it enough.

But then it's your scenario.

Well, it's better than not being able to imagine it

[Kapten Klutz]

You mean like a boxing cover?

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

In that case, why not use....a boxing cover?

Nice pic, thanks. That's exactly the move they've taught us against hooks (or rounds? wtd?) where I train WC. They describe it as a tight tan sau. I think of it as a chance of survival.

Still just looking at the scenario theoretically, it looks like this block leaves you further from being able to respond than the bong would, if the bong stops the punch. The bong puts your elbow in the perfect spot for the elbow strike.

In the end I guess you don't sit there weighing options if someone really swings at you. You just react, and if you've trained well enough your reaction might resemble your art.

[nelsonmarcelino]

If you try lifting your bong you lose the truss.

In our chi sao we don't lift the bong--we drill forward
from the point of contact.

Some people like to apply bong with retreating footwork
(step-back); retreating with a bong is very poor wing chun. This retreat would most likely occur to avoid a hit in which case applying a bong cover is superfluous.

Sometimes to make the best of a bad situation means doing something different than what you would do in a good situation.
It doesn't mean doing something bad in a good situation and applying that same bad something to the bad situation.

Applying a high bong against a tall opponent is a risky proposition. He can sail right through your bong with a reverse inverted hook punch and hit you on the grill

[nelsonmarcelino]

A Bongsao arm should rotate at the point of contact. For example in dan chi sao you have your arm in tansao with an opponent in fook; you do a palm strike, opponent does jut sao. Opponent then punches, you start converting into bongsao. You rotate the radius around the ulna at that point while wedging with slight forward pressure. You must not bring the elbow back or try to lift your elbow. Instead the forearm (wherever it happens to be) stays where it is and just rotates -- hence holding your position properly and having proper angle is important. The little finger is inline with the ulna bone (held naturally) the other fingers are loose and the thumb drops down. This structure has fully body support behind the bongsao and channels all incoming energy into the ground. If you were to look from above at the line created by bongsao it forms a truss when in contact with an opponent's limb. The truss is a simple skeletal structure. In design theory, the individual members of a simple truss are only subject to tension and compression forces and not bending forces. The whole arm is held in a relaxed manner with no tension in the shoulder -- the shoulder dips, as should be the case in all WC movements - The more an opponent presses on the bong the more you can absorb the force to make you heavier. According to Woo, with a proper formed bong sao you should be able to support twice your body mass. At this point you can simple move forward and unbalance your opponent if he continues to fight against you. A similar concept applies to someone who uses a heavy hand against a tan sao for example.

[Liddel]

Applying a high bong against a tall opponent is a risky proposition. He can sail right through your bong with a reverse inverted hook punch and hit you on the grill

100% Correct !
Your absoutly right Nelson, if i stand there and dont react like you did in the vid.

[CFT]

According to Woo, with a proper formed bong sao you should be able to support twice your body mass.

Any experimental evidence for this Nelson?

[nelsonmarcelino]

100% Correct !
Your absoutly right Nelson, if i stand there and dont react like you did in the vid.

High bong is not stable; hence it collapses into something else (with the chance of your getting hit) or you have to dance around (poor wing chun) like many wing chun people do. That's the whole point of the vid