chum kil arm break

[nelsonmarcelino]

http://detroitwingchun.com/chumkilapp4.htm

[splinter]

There's nothing there.

[couch]

There is...the problem is that the files are anywhere from 30 to 60mb.

Maybe Nelson can chop them up.

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

I wish to see the vid but while we wait.....

Why is it that people think this is an arm break ?
In my School this is not even close - has anyone here used this as an arm break in a REAL situation ?
If so, id be very surprised.....

My Chum Kui action is actually Jut Sao to the inside corner of the elbow with fingers pointing down the forearm
(not like other schools that have fingers pointing 90 degrees away from the body making the action more like a Pak Sao, and who also i notice have the touch point of the fingers and not the wrist ???)

This action has several uses, but breaking an arm is not one of them

The arm break senario seems to me to come from those who looked and learnt and were not taught then learnt, but thats just MHO.

If anyone has a viable way of breaking an arm with this action, im open to being wrong and am willing to try and understand it so i can apply it in fighting

Anyone care to enlighten me ?
Whats everyones general thoughts ?
Curious

[couch]

Here's the vid.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/VIDEOS/chumkilapp4.wmv

I just keep viewing the page source and then finding the WMV file.

I've been shown an application to get someone's grip off of my shirt. But I didn't like that idea because I am using two hands on my opponent's one hand...and he's got one free too!

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

Couch, what was the basic gyst of the vid, for/against the arm break or giving instuction how ?
Seen as you saw the vid

OR Nelson,
This is a very interesting topic for me because ive long had questions for those different than me with regard to this action from Chum Kui.

Is it an arm break for you ? if not what is it ?
if yes then in what situation do you aplly it ? etc etc

Im curious.....

Do you agree/disagree with my points ?

Couch -
i too have been shown that application you mention but dislike it for the same reasons.
Putting my elbow over the grabbing arm while punching suits my mindset better.

[reneritchie]

It's usually helpful to think of two-handed movements as two one-handed movements done at the same time for efficieny. While they can be used together, they can also be used in combination or sequence with any other point...

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Nelson and thanks Couch for reposting where I can see them!

Liddel, seems you're thinking about the tok sao? That's not what Nelson is demoing: he does a tok sao to demo the next move which is a elbow armbar.

Nelson, we do that too but I've never really done it with the tok sao set-up. I agree that tok sao is disrupting centreline as you seem to, but I use that armbar in the same way: it's too low percentage as an actual break I think.

As such, I wouldn't think to use the two in sequence: it's too fiddly and smacks of chasing arms to me... once I've broken his balance with the tok I'd prefer to hit him!

But that's just my opinion of course. I can't say I'd completely rule them out in that order either.

[Liddel]

My computer played that vid today so i can now comment having seen the vid....

I see what you refer to MAT, setting up with the 'Tok sao'

I personally believe the arm break as shown in this situation would never produce a broken bone.
The elbow is a strong enough joint already without trying it on a VT man that uses this joint for the basis of almost every action in our art.
Trying it with other styles wouldnt produce different results IMO either.

Using Baong Sao would bar the arm, but there would not be enough 'impact power' nor 'leverage' to break said arm IMO and IMO you need one of these types of power and enough of it depending on the size of you opponent.

A more realistic attempt would be to pull that arm downward, straightening the arm and then smack your elbow right into his when the arm is stright.
This would 'at least' result in a hyper extended pain in the elbow

That said, in the vid the opponent is controlled and Nelson has the chance (space and time) to follow up, because the attacker is turned away but he would survive to continue fighting.

Im with Mat - PUNCHING is straightfoward / quick and has a higher percentage of getting results, but i understand why this is done just to show this action from Chum Kui
Thanks Nelson.

[Mr Punch]

I personally believe the arm break as shown in this situation would never produce a broken bone.
The elbow is a strong enough joint already without trying it on a VT man that uses this joint for the basis of almost every action in our art.
Trying it with other styles wouldnt produce different results IMO either.

Sure. Full agreement here.

It's extremely difficult to break someone's arm like that. If you have full extension and enough power maybe it's possible, but you don't get that against fighters including untrained scrappers usually. The importance of the flying armbar is more like that of small joint locks I think: to disrupt the balance and take the centreline to open them up to a couple of good head shots.

[Jeff Bussey]

I've been shown an application to get someone's grip off of my shirt. But I didn't like that idea because I am using two hands on my opponent's one hand...and he's got one free too!

Best,
Kenton

Hey Kenton and Liddel,
What I find works best for me is if I'm grabbed by a guys left hand (cause he wants to hit me with his right) I just punch him in the face on the side where his punch is coming. So in this case it would be with my left.
When a guy grabs your shirt or jacket, he can't (effectively anyways) hit you with that hand. So he's actually limited himself to one when you have two to hit him with.

Just a side note, don't mean to change the thread.

J

[couch]

Hey Kenton and Liddel,
What I find works best for me is if I'm grabbed by a guys left hand (cause he wants to hit me with his right) I just punch him in the face on the side where his punch is coming. So in this case it would be with my left.
When a guy grabs your shirt or jacket, he can't (effectively anyways) hit you with that hand. So he's actually limited himself to one when you have two to hit him with.

Just a side note, don't mean to change the thread.

J

I agree with you. I also like to have my elbow out in this case to cover a larger area. That's why I don't like the idea of me using two hands on his one arm while his other arm is free!

Best.

[Liddel]

I like what Mat said there
"to disrupt the balance and take the centreline to open them up to a couple of good head shots."

This would be my main use for the action now that i think back to using it from time to time.

In reality when i use it the timing is much quicker in terms of using Tok Sao to disrupt the opponents balance and at the split second they are off balance or up on thier toes i either use a follow up punch before they get rooted again or sweep the lead leg, depending if its offered as they re-balance again.

[Mr Punch]

ttt for Nelson... noticed you'd been back on and was wondering if you were going to join in your own party!?

No aggro, just want to hear your opinion.

[fiamacho]

I like what Mat said there
"to disrupt the balance and take the centreline to open them up to a couple of good head shots."

This would be my main use for the action now that i think back to using it from time to time.

In reality when i use it the timing is much quicker in terms of using Tok Sao to disrupt the opponents balance and at the split second they are off balance or up on thier toes i either use a follow up punch before they get rooted again or sweep the lead leg, depending if its offered as they re-balance again.

Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned. This technique is great for opening up thier centeline, I see Tok sau as more of a spoiling technique.