Yang Family Enigma - The forgotten side

[yangyang]

Right on Jim. I'm trying to do more standing also. BTW, that CMC clip is the best clip I've ever seen of him. Good peng energy!!!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Thanks!

Yes! That clip is awesome! My sifu gave me the Link a while back but I watch it all the time! I have tried to play devils advocate with it but still cant say anything other than its great!

Even if the guy pushed off him there is absolutely NO WAY anyone will pick up that kind of momentum unless something projected him with great Shock/Force.

If anyone thinks I am wrong about the Push Off possibility being not accurate then please show us a demo producing the same results.

The "Forgotten Side" of Yang family art is the Basic GONG! Nothing more, Nothing less.

Respect to those who have cultivated the Taiji enigine!!


Peace,

[Walter Joyce]

Jim,

Nice posts.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Walter!


Thanks!




Peace,

[johnv]

I'm seriously hoping NOT to start a flame war by saying this, so please don't take this the wrong way. My goal is not to insult anybody or their style. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that doesn't study Yang style at all - whether Yang Cheng Fu or another version. It seems to me that some people say that YCF attained only a "beginner's level" (and I've heard this elsewhere, too, not just from the article posted a while back). Others say that he had demonstrated his great skill and there were witnesses to see it.

I don't see why both of these can't be true at the same time. After all, whether someone's skill is a "beginner" is all relative. It is possible that YCF learned, let's say 30% of the total style (I'm just making this up as an example). To the non-trained and common people, he could easily seem to have incredible skill. But to someone who had completed the entire style and mastered it, he could seem like a beginner. I know that some YCF practitioners may not like this, as it implies that their lineage isn't as great as it could have been, but honestly - every master in every single lineage could have been better. But even so, most were good enough and that's what counts in the end, right?

[yangyang]

I'm seriously hoping NOT to start a flame war by saying this, so please don't take this the wrong way. My goal is not to insult anybody or their style. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that doesn't study Yang style at all - whether Yang Cheng Fu or another version. It seems to me that some people say that YCF attained only a "beginner's level" (and I've heard this elsewhere, too, not just from the article posted a while back). Others say that he had demonstrated his great skill and there were witnesses to see it.

I don't see why both of these can't be true at the same time. After all, whether someone's skill is a "beginner" is all relative. It is possible that YCF learned, let's say 30% of the total style (I'm just making this up as an example). To the non-trained and common people, he could easily seem to have incredible skill. But to someone who had completed the entire style and mastered it, he could seem like a beginner. I know that some YCF practitioners may not like this, as it implies that their lineage isn't as great as it could have been, but honestly - every master in every single lineage could have been better. But even so, most were good enough and that's what counts in the end, right?

Wrong!! Yang Cheng Fu was no beginner. I think 25 years or more of practice (especially having access to knowledge that most don't) makes ChengFu much more than a beginner, or even an intermediate. He may not have had the skill his grandfather possessed, but I doubt many in this world had that kind of skill (especially today). Looking at Jim's clip of Cheng Man Ching, you can tell that CMC was no slouch, and many today aren't even close to his level. So, with that said, CMC himself has stated in his own books that he only got 25% of Yang Cheng Fu's skill level. Think about that!! 25% of YCF's skill level!!! That all I need to know. Yang Cheng Fu was a very very powerful TCC martial artist. Those who don't believe it are just blowing in the wind......

JohnV, you sound just like all the rest of the Yang Cheng Fu my sifu-is-better-than-yours jealousy club. All talk, and absolutely nothing at all to back it up. And I mean nothing at all to back it up!! When you can get even remotely close to CMC's skill level, THEN "Maybe" you could possibly be qualified to criticise!! Until then, keep playing the Internet-no-proof-misinformation game.

[johnv]

Did you just completely misinterpret my post?! I don't practice Yang style and neither does my teacher, so there is no issue of whether I have "the real one" or not. I don't have any of them. I have no vested interest in whether YCF was a beginner or not. I didn't offer proof because I presented a possible scenario where I could see how both sides could be right, not a fact.

And the reality is that none of us knows how good he reallyl was, because none of us ever saw him do anything. Years of experience is no guarantee - I know people that have trained for over 30 years that are no good, and ones that have trained for far less that are fantastic. Eye-witness accounts depend on the prejudices and skill-level of the witness, which we don't know.

I'm not saying that YCF was a beginner, nor am I saying he was great. What I'm saying is that we just can't know for sure. And since we don't know for sure, I presented a possible scenario where the various stories about him fit together. Is my scenario right? Who knows - it's just a possibility, that's all. But I think it's a stretch to say that the scenario I presented is absolutely impossible without having been there.

[Brad]

Yang Cheng Fu was pretty famous back in the day, and while fame doesn't necesarilly = skill, it's my understanding that someone just couldn't have had the sort of standing he had in the martial arts community during that time period without proving himself beyond a "beginer" level. Maybe someone with more knowledge of what things were like back then in China could refute (or afirm) my belief (I'm hardly an expert on Chinese martial arts history and could be wrong)?

[johnv]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but was he famous among other martial artists, or famous among the general populace? It's kind of hard from today's point of view to determine how famous someone was back then. Without E! television and whatever, I'm not sure how we could even judge fame as it was back then.

By the way, I'm not trying pick on Yang Cheng Fu or anything. I have nothing against him or his style at all. What I'm talking about could apply to any past master of any style - yes, even my own. I'm not trying to say that I have a style or teacher that is any better or worse than anyone else's out there.

The point is that judging someone's skill level is necessarily based on and biased by the skill level of the observer, and a lot of time people tend to forget that. If the person you're watching is better than you or anyone you've seen before, you will think they are good. If they are not as good as you, then you will think they are not so good. This is an oversimplification, but I hope it makes sense. What I'm saying is that when we want to judge the skill of a past master, people rely on stories written about that master without taking into account the skill or level of understanding of the person doing the writing. So when I say that it is a possibility that YCF was a "beginner", I don't mean a beginner in the sense of your average high school student today that just started training in martial arts. I mean that it is possible that the person who said YCF was a "beginner" could have been someone like Yang Lu Chan, who was far more experienced and advanced. From that more advanced point of view, YCF could very well seem like a "beginner", because they see that there is so much more one can aspire to. But at the same time, from our point of view, or even the point of view of the average martial artist of the time, he could seem like a "master". And he could be both of these at the same time, and neither would be entirely wrong. I don't mean this in an insulting manner. I hope I was successful in making that clear.

Yang Cheng Fu was pretty famous back in the day, and while fame doesn't necesarilly = skill, it's my understanding that someone just couldn't have had the sort of standing he had in the martial arts community during that time period without proving himself beyond a "beginer" level. Maybe someone with more knowledge of what things were like back then in China could refute (or afirm) my belief (I'm hardly an expert on Chinese martial arts history and could be wrong)?

[yangyang]

There is plenty of proof around, even today. You can go ask Fu Zhong Wen's son who's father knew YCF intimately. He was a TCC master, no doubt about it. There are plenty of disciples running around who's teacher studied directly with YCF. They all agreed his power was astonishing. There were many witnesses, including the Tung family, TT Liang, YCF's own sons, etc. Stop your bull****ting. Also, his son Yang Sau Chung (the oldest son) was a tough SOB and there are people today who studied directly with YCF's son Yang Sau Chung, and they said (from firsthand experience) that YSC was a monster. So, it's only natural that if Yang Sau Chung was a monster, his dad was even more so.

JohnV, why don't you go talk about things that you actually know about instead of blowing wind. I'm positive you have an agenda of some kind just like every other my-sifu-says knitwit. As you say, you don't even do Yang family tai chi chuan, so why don't you concentrate on the things that you do know, and not spend your time trying to spread false rumours and hearsay propagated by jealousy, envy, and greed.

[johnv]

What is your problem, honestly? It's starting to sound like you have some sort of agenda. Why are you getting so defensive when I never even attacked you, your style, or your teachers? Did I say Yang Cheng Fu was no good? No. I don't even think that. So what are you freaking out about? If you could calm down for just a second, you might realize that I am speaking about something I know about. I never spoke about the merits or nuances of Yang style, did I? No. I even said that I wasn't particulary talking about YCF, but just that the whole idea of judging someone else's skill is based on one's own biases (which you're proving, as you seem to be very pro-YCF biased without being able to even consider other possibilities). I don't have to study Yang style to know that people can be biased, on both sides of any issue. So just calm down. Nobody is attacking your style or your teachers.

JohnV, why don't you go talk about things that you actually know about instead of blowing wind. I'm positive you have an agenda of some kind just like every other my-sifu-says knitwit. As you say, you don't even do Yang family tai chi chuan, so why don't you concentrate on the things that you do know, and not spend your time trying to spread false rumours and hearsay propagated by jealousy, envy, and greed.

[yangyang]

Then why did you bring up Yang Chengfu in the first place? Of course you have a bias of some sort. Of course you do. By the way, I'm not even remotely excited about this topic, it's been done to death before, believe me. Like it or not, you are more part of the problem than the solution. If you can't wrap your mind around that, then jolly good for you!! I only responded to you because I'm bored at work, and thought my words might make some sense to the people reading them. In the end, I think I proved my point more than you proved yours, so be it.