Wah Lum Temple - Orlando

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Thanks for the reply, and explanation. Wu Dip Ma is a tough one and takes a lot of practice. What's interesting is how often it appears in the forms. Hardly at all actually.

Interesting yong fa for it though but no good at all if not trained.

As for the others (sei ping ma (riding horse), dun san ma (hill climbing) and gwai ma (kneeling)) I have to disagree unless you can explain specifically what's done wrong in those 3 stances.

I was thinking it was the turned in toe being poor alignment but guess I was wrong. All I ever hear is that the WL leg alignment is off on their stances. Maybe someone can explain how Wah Lum riding horse or hill climbing horse differs from other styles.

I've also attached a photo of my representation of die bok ma with double broadswords for anyone to correct if I'm not doing it right. But then I'm not exactly the best representation of Wah Lum since are many more out there much better than myself.

[Crushing Fist]

WL knee problems are from the horse and side horse stances, wu dip ma(butterfly stance)gwai ma.
In the PL pic, we are in transitional move in the pic but the toe is turned in. You have to straighten the foot to transition forward.

Here is a great pic of the wl knee problem

This pic shows very bad alignment on the back leg

The way I understand it the foot and knee need to be pointing in the same direction, or least close to it. Otherwise the strain on the knee can cause serious soft tissue damage.

Turning the front foot in is a good stance... as long as you turn the knee too. All the Tai Chi I do (Yang and Chen) uses this type of stance.

Hua Lin, I can't really tell from your pic but your stance does not appear to have this problem, at least not to such an extreme.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I always keep my knee over my toe. That's how I learned and nobody has ever told me any different. That's how you prevent problems and most likely the reason I never developed a problem in my 25+ years of training.

That is also how I taught during my time at the Temple and with my own short lived school. I don't recall any instructors teaching it any different either so I can't say Wah Lum does it 'wrong'.

[Crushing Fist]

The professional student program is good as long as your commited and willing to sacrifice. Think of it like an educational experience. You should expect to "live" this kung fu training 7 days a week. It is sort of an accelerated program. Yes you will have time for a part-time job. Some folks just dont like to work. But from what I understand, in the beginning you will be so dead tired you will not want to work. The intensity factor is from the forms work, there pretty challenging physically. The reason for the knee problems are simple, pm me and I can explain. BTW, what are your aspirations, do you want to be a teacher or just wanting to learn more? Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

What are my aspirations? good question

well I already am a teacher, not in mantis but in the art of "shaolin-do"

::waits for booing and hissing to stop::

What I have seen of mantis has always made it a favorite style of mine, and the mantis itself is one of my favorite creatures.

Now what is my aspiration?

Well I have wanted to start a kung fu temple of my very own for quite some time...

A place where serious students can live and train without the need for outside attachments or money. Sure, classes could be offered for outsiders which could help with revenue for the temple, but for the core live-in students the only requirement would be to work... hard physical labor. I'm thinking an organic perma-culture farm so that the produce could both feed the students and be sold to markets to provide more of the revenue needed for such a place. Kung Fu training and demanding phyiscal labor... what could be better? Think of it as a hippie commune without the hippies and more hand to hand combat.

I almost began this once at an existing wanna-be hippie commune type place, but decided against it at the time for various reasons.

So that is my aspiration...


You may say I'm a dreamer...


but I'm not the only one.

[yu shan]

I think you are on to something Crushing Fist, sounds like a neat concept. Maybe we can all give some ideas or experiences. No hissing sounds from me, btw.

[Judge Pen]

It is a neat concept, but I can hear the "cult" naysayer's clearing their throats.

I remember reading advertisements in old Black Belt magazines about community type schools etc. As far as I know, WL is the most successful at this type of environment.

[Crushing Fist]

Thanks for the postive feedback guys...


Yes, the naysayers shall always say their nays, but I'm certainly not looking for a cultish environment. I would just like to have a nice place outside the rat race where martial arts training and sane living could co-exist.

As long as you have to pay to be somewhere it just doesn't feel like a temple to me, more like martial arts club med. I'm not looking to found a religion here, just a place where that lifestyle would be possible. Unless there already is one... then all I have to do is get there!

But, assuming no such place exists, a month at an operating facilty like the WL temple may give some insight into how such a place could function successfully.

This is an idea that has been simmering in the back of my brain for awhile, and now I can really feel it bubbling back up again... is that inspiration I smell?

I would love to hear about ideas/experiences that would relate to this...

perhaps with the kind help of interested forum members, something great might just be created.

I've got some R&D to get to, meanwhile lets hear some thoughts from the panel...

[ironfenix]

Hello all,
Just finished a great weekend with Art Laoshi in florida. Did a fantastic whip chain set. The problem with the knees isn't from the pong lai stance where the toes are turned in. The problem arises when the student takes low stances before they are ready, and are not corrected by the teacher. I messed up my knee really bad and the doc said to lay off kung fu unless I would have gotten surgery. All because i was turning my knee inwards in cat stances, & glacing at the moon stances/poses. The fact that I have skinny legs allowed me to go low, but I hadn't built up my joints to handle it. My first teacher saw my stances but never said a thing. Hualin Laoshi has his knee turned outward, which makes it more difficult to go into a low stance (at least without practice) but keeps the joints healthy.

There is also no need to water down the classes for the sake of commercialism. Two person drills & forms are in fact EASIER to teach to masses than the traditional way of breaking up the class and teaching level specific exercises (i.e. this group does set 1, this other group does set 2, and the one student that has stuck around learns set 3). One instructor can teach two person drills and sets to 30 + people ( I do it all the time). You do not have to water anything down, just break it down. Shifu Arthur has this killer teaching program as well as a great business model that radically increases your bottom line. It is possible to fight/spar with good technique, and teach forms, and self defense skills, and physical conditioning, and keep most of your students.

Anyway watch out with those stances (the picture of that WL guy with the double broadswords is a perfect example). Turn those knees out!

train hard,
israel

[18elders]

Your alignment is much better than in the pic posted. The problem is that people are not corrected( you can't argue that as the picture is of a long time wl sifu) why is his stance not correct?????
WL horse stance is done wider than the way i was taught. People who go wider with the stance usually stand with their knees improperly aligned with the foot.

Ironfenix-
got some pics of you and your wife doing lion, send me your email and i will send them to you.

Hope you guys had a good time with Art, tell him happy BD from all us pong lai people when u chat with him.

[spiralstair]

You have to be strong, or young, or very light in weight to do low stances.

The correct teaching method is toes in line with knees, and the most crucial instruction, with body upright one must still be able to see some of the front of the foot while looking down over the weighted knee. Like all movement rules, once you have a sufficient strength-to-weight ratio you can ‘break’ the rule.
As a teacher I always tell my students to align their lower limbs following the rules I outlined above, but that I won’t always do it that way, because I have developed a high degree of leg strength to support my weight. It’s a case of “do as I say, not as I do”, until they have the strength to protect themselves.

So showing pictures of Sifu level practitioners in low postures while criticizing their stances tells us nothing about how those same Sifus teach their students. Duh.

Some high level CMA masters have extreme strength-to-weight abilities that allow them to perform very low stance changes fluidly. To me that’s the way to tell whether the student has developed the strength to perform the ‘very low’. Do they have to make a little internal ‘bounce’ to assist themselves in changing out of a low stance? If so, they are not stronger enough for the depth. The transition should be smooth, like in good T’ai Chi, keeping ‘the heavy side down’.

[mantiskilla]

"So showing pictures of Sifu level practitioners in low postures while criticizing their stances tells us nothing about how those same Sifus teach their students. Duh."


How about their students that have to receive knee surgery? Does that help? I personally had problems with my right knee and it was not until two years or so AFTER I quit Wah Lum that it finally went away, and I never quit kung fu, just found a teacher. I know people from Wah Lum that are not so lucky, but I only have experience with one school in the system. I dont really buy the whole "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to physical structure, or body mechanics. The structure is in place for a reason.
________
YourBettina

[18elders]

caught some heat for putting up pictures of people's kids.
Here is a pic of my kid( he is in the blue with the hat on), it was last last year in china, he was 4 years old at the time.

[spiralstair]

Mantiskilla
I'm sorry about your lack of instruction in how to stand in relation to the ground. Everyone deserves decent instruction. Unfortunately, not all teachers can give it. I was trying to make a different point about pictures of advanced stance positions.


Have you seen any pictures of Bode Miller skiing downhill? Totally wrong structure, hips too far back, downhill ski un weighted, knees bent waay too far back? All he does is win with that form. So you think Bode would tell a beginner to ‘do it like I do’?

Seen any pictures of Tiger Woods at the top of his follow through? Andy Rod**** at the end of his forehand? The torque that’s evident in their structure would destroy a lesser athlete. Should a beginner try and do it like they do? Or maybe we should screen advanced strength pictures in case someone thinks improper structure in an advanced athlete is something to emulate.

18 Elders
Your kid looks great.

[Shaolinlueb]

caught some heat for putting up pictures of people's kids.
Here is a pic of my kid( he is in the blue with the hat on), it was last last year in china, he was 4 years old at the time.

is that the west lake in hangzhou?

[Brad]

Mantiskilla
I'm sorry about your lack of instruction in how to stand in relation to the ground. Everyone deserves decent instruction. Unfortunately, not all teachers can give it. I was trying to make a different point about pictures of advanced stance positions.

Why is it ok to have poor structure just because you're "advanced"? I've seen some old masters use low stances, but the structure was still pretty good. Intentionally using poor structure in stances to go lower isn't going to help any, it's just going to put un-needed stress on the joints in order to look pretty. In kungfu, some techniques are just more practical when done with proper structure. For example, the forward stance with the toes turned in. When you turn the knee in alignment with the toes it's a nice attack on the opponent's leg (I've had it done to me before ), if you don't turn the knee with the toes what good is it? You'd just be turning your foot in with nothing to back it up.