what kind of mantis is this?

[po-pai]

Maybe you guys can help, I train in wing chun and jow gar kung fu. In my jow gar we have two mantis forms and I wass wondering if anyone can tell me anything about them. the site is www.chanskungfu.com and click on the media galleryy then the jow gar link and either go to the system overview or scroll to the bottem to see one of the students prefroming one of the forms. the overview clip is just a brief look at the forms but hopefully you guys can tell me something about them.

[poorboy]

in the 2 short clips that I saw it looked like 7 star northern mantis. the clip stated southern mantis but that was not correct.

[Tieh]

This is Beng Bu (mandarin pinyin). All northern mantis substyles have a Beng Bu as far as I know and it is considered to be the oldest form in mantis boxing.
In the performance you can still see the mantis flavor, although most mantis schools wouldn't probably hop around that much and have wider ranging footwork. It comes defintely from northen mantis, probably from the seven star lineage, since it looks more hard and external in flavor.

Best regards

[mantis108]

OMG...

I thought their "application" clip was "cute". I liked the idea of simulating attack in reality. Now those type of attack is pretty much unreal but I can accept that. I can even accept that the breakfalling is pretty dangerous (elbows almost always landed first - ouch!) but it's something that can be improved over time. It's a good try but then nice facility is not always a guarantee of quality of instruction. BTW, I love those tatami.

Now onto the form...

I don't believe I would ever use this word [BUTCHERY] of form. But man I could weep in just watching the "Bonk Bo Mantis". My jaw just dropped. I just hope that GM Chiu (may he rests in peace) would not turn in his grave. The form in question is Bengbu from CCK TCPM (God knows who taught this out like that). It is beyond sad. Moves added, stances changed, striking angle altered, etc.. you name all the don'ts and you will see them in there. I am without word.

Mantis108

[bungbukuen]

Overall I thought Bonk Bu (bung bu kuen) was a much more solid performance in comparison to some of the other purely Mantis schools who placed vids on this forum. It was much more dynamic, clean, and powerfully executed with some decent looking spirit. Yes there were many many changes but still a relatively better executed performance. I would take this any day over something slow, sloppy, and little spirit.

Even though we all know forms are not that important, it would be nice to get some more authoritative opinions on what actually merits good execution of a form and what just plain sucks. What do you guys/girls think?

Peace.

[TaichiMantis]

Maybe you guys can help, I train in wing chun and jow gar kung fu. In my jow gar we have two mantis forms and I wass wondering if anyone can tell me anything about them. the site is www.chanskungfu.com and click on the media galleryy then the jow gar link and either go to the system overview or scroll to the bottem to see one of the students prefroming one of the forms. the overview clip is just a brief look at the forms but hopefully you guys can tell me something about them.

They are mainly a Wing Chun school. I bought my chinese staff from them. We've had a couple of their students check out our class...didn't stick, must have been too hard . Sifu Chan is a great guy. I know they do well in sparring at the Midland tournament....

[Oso]

Our area is heavily karate and TKD saturated. It's very hard to attract students that really want to learn a tougher system. Many drop out because they think the training is too hard....oh well.

preach on, brother. same thing here.

[-N-]

Actually, I didn't find that version of Bung Bo all that horrible.

When I look at a different school's form, I don't get too concerned with the sequence and any variations. I look more at the body mechanics.

I did see that the person has a feel for coordinated rolling twirling hand motions that are used to link together fast combination attacks. Motions were bigger than preferred by my teacher, but this is just variation on form expression.

Also, the person showed good coordination of the handwork with the bouncing footwork. Also, he linked together the mechanics of one bounce to the next fairly well, where others may allow the footwork to become dead and static. So just looking at that aspect of his body mechanics, I would expect that he could/should be able to coordinate rapid striking combinations with continuous abrupt footwork when attacking.

N.

[shirkers1]

Overall I thought Bonk Bu (bung bu kuen) was a much more solid performance in comparison to some of the other purely Mantis schools who placed vids on this forum. It was much more dynamic, clean, and powerfully executed with some decent looking spirit. Yes there were many many changes but still a relatively better executed performance. I would take this any day over something slow, sloppy, and little spirit.

Even though we all know forms are not that important, it would be nice to get some more authoritative opinions on what actually merits good execution of a form and what just plain sucks. What do you guys/girls think?

Peace.

I would take something straight to the point and crisp over some hop along cassidy any day. But hey I guess it's all in "flavor" and what we like as individuals. Still waiting on your version of what is good, namely a video of you.

[mantis108]

I would like to first apologize to Po-Pai that I don't mean to bad mouth or bash your school. I just get upset when people altering forms especially the mantis hand forms for whatever reasons. It is a serious disregard of the intellectual properties of the past masters IMHO. Maintaining the integrity of forms is amongst the highest virtues of a martial artist. It shows respect to the system and teacher, and honesty is the best policy.

I don't know how your school came to teach this Bengbu form but sadly it's been altered and the flavor isn't consistent with CCK TCPM as far as I can tell. Have you seen the partner side to this form? If you have seen that, you will know the presentation by your school mate is off and will not be competable for the partnered form.

Regards

Mantis108

[onyomi]

One thing that is definitely not good in the video is that he "hops," rather than "stamping."

[-N-]

We do prefer more emphasis on the downward part of the movement than the upward... and also tighter timing and smaller overall motion on that kind of footwork.

Mainly my comment was that he pretty much has the timing coordination of the handwork and the footwork. Looking at the switch footwork uppercut 7 seconds into the vid, you can see that he shows the basic elements for being able to generate explosive power on that strike. I'd rather work with someone that has a feel for that timing rather than struggle trying to get a person coordinate the strike with the footwork.

Well, that's just one guy doing one form. I don't judge because I don't know the how/what/why behind that particular performance, and I don't know anything else about his abilities. I do recognize he demonstrated some abilities that others can have difficulties with.

As far as how much hopping, and how it's done...

[Paul T England]

Its bung bo kuen do but Jow Gar. This is very common in the hong kong styles that if a teacher learns a form they add it to the teaching. The form changes a great deal due to the body structure imho. My old Choy Li Fut Sifu used to teach Bung Bo Kuen to some students and it was very cool having CLF Chap Choi's in it.

To me its not mantis, but that is not to say its bad.

Paul

[phoenixdog]

Your media clips are great!Lots of speed and energy.For a style to teach both norhern and southern mantis shows depth of experience in the sifu.

[mooyingmantis]

Though the form was nothing like the form as I learned it, I think we have to look at the setting in which it was performed. It was a tournament, not an instructional or peer-review setting.
I have judged forms in a few states over the last few decades and I would have judged it as a nice performance. Would I want it taught at my school like that for self-defense training? No! But if it was being taught to be performed in a tournament setting I would not have a problem with it.
As -N- stated, the man showed some skills.
Peace,
Richard