CLF differences between branches

[Kennyfist]

rick this is the drawing board and all is welcome to add their input. ultimately i am going to decipher everything anyway with my POV, but e'rayones observations are welcome.

then i will add it to the 3 families history site.


hsk

HSK,
QUOTE: "ultimately i am going to decipher everything anyway with my POV"

NOW IS THAT A RECIPE FOR DISASTER?

HSK, YOU CAN'T EVEN GET THE NAMES OF THE TECHNICAL TERMS RIGHT....SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PUT EVERYTHING THROUGH YOUR "DECIPHERING"?

[hskwarrior]

Your Momma!!!!!!!:d

[lianweizhi]

hsk, to help answer your question about the double poon kiu:

a poon kiu is a circular block, and there are a few variations of it in the LKH line (I'm a 7th generation student, grandmaster is my si-gung)

A) Dahn poon kiu - this is the inside to outside circular block often seen when we execute sow choys, i.e. left hand circles clockwise as we shift from right to left gong ma and throw the right sow choy. The left hand executes the dahn, or single, poon kiu.

B) Seurng (double) poon kiu(a) - this is the technique that I think fu pow is referring to. The most common place we see this technique is in the following sequence - usually something like diu ma (cat stance) chin la-seurng poon kiu - sei ping ma chop choy (or fujow, or chin ji choy, or chang jeurng, or whatever). In this technique, the left hand drops downwards, palm up, all the way around into a grab or a cum jeurng at the end. In mid-rotation, the right hand flips forward and performs its own circle, ending above the shoulder, where you can follow up with a yum chop choy. The first block is actually the right hand making contact with the forearm, followed by the left hand's grab or cum jeurng. Two circles --> Double poon kiu.

C) Seurng poon kiu (b) - a variant on the double poon kiu, seen before the chang fu knee kick techniques and sow geuk sweeps, as well as sow choys. Unlike variation (a), this one is better done in a more square stance rather than a cat stance, although (a) can work in a stance other than a cat stance as well. This one starts basically the same as variation (a) but is more east-west. Again, the left hand drops and then the right hand performs it's forward circle. This time, however, the left hand follows a wider path - it shoots all the way to the left as you step towards the left, then circles clockwise inside to out, as in the dahn poon kiu, effectively "sticking" the opponents strike, then sweeps it back outside, opening the opponent up for the sow choy following up.

Hopefully that made sense - It's probably way easier to show than type!

Fu-pow, Sisuk, or anyone else, please make any corrections if you see something stupid :P

GL

[hskwarrior]

Its Always Better To Show And If Anyone Wants To Post Up A Picture That Would Help.

The Thing Is Up To My Sigung Jew Leong Lau Bun's School Was All Chinese. In My School Under My Sifu We Rarely Use Chinese Terminologies, All Our Own Terms For What We Do. Usually In English.

I Am Most Confident That All Choy Lee Fut Does The Same Things In One Fashion Or Another. Only Minor Individualistic Modifications Set Them Apart From This Teacher Or That Teacher.

Watching The Lkh Lineage As Well As Other Clf Schools, I've Realized That We Have The Same Stuff. Where Some Schools Fractionate A Technique We Have Pretty Much Blended One Into The Other.

As In Our Circle Chop Choy. We Use The Downward Circle Block But Instead Of Stopping At The Block We Blend Something Very Similar To "kum" Or Cover Palm But It Turns Into The Same Poon Kiu And Clears The Punch And Then We Throw A Chop Choy.

Our Circle Block Is Used In My Opinion To Block Two Punches With The Same Hand. Lets Say Your Lead Hand Is Right, And Left Is In Reverse, Your Opponent Throws A Low Punch To The Stomach, But The Shoots A Punch To You Face. So Instantly From The Downward Circle Block Continue The Motion And Block The Punch Coming At Your Face.---two Punches Same Hand.

Was That Clear, Or Should I Try And Post Pictures?

Hsk

[lianweizhi]

Some pictures would probably help but let me see if I got it.

I think we are on the same page here, if I were to do it I would do the poon kiu and block with my forearm on the way down and as I circle back I would stop the high punch with a cum jeurng at the opp.'s forearm - is that what you had in mind?

Some pictures would be handy =D

[DF]

Hi Frank,

I don't know how much help I can offer you since I am the type that see CLF is CLF. Yes, it is true that the Buck Sing Branch places a lot of emphasis on the Charp. I cannot comment on the other two branches since I don't study them.
To me, CLF is like what we today call the MMA folks. We have our "Seeds" and go on to make the kf our own. Look at the elders from the past, they have their own speciality.

GM Tarm Sam was known for his "lin wan charps" as well as his training brother
Wong Chai was also known for his charps and fast footworks. Tarm's other training brother Chung Tai was said to be excellent with his gwa, sow, bin and pau. Lau Yau special move was "Yung Charp tiger claw"
Tarm own students and grand students also have their own favorite techniques. Pun Lum from the Kong On line was known for his kicking skills and Tarm's son Tarm Wai was known for his no shadow kick and "Gum Kong Fu Jow gung".

As you can see, it is pretty hard in my eyes to see the diff and similarity among the three branches. The "seeds" are similar but at the end of the day, everyone take the kf to their own level.

DF

[Hephaestus]

I understand that one of the biggest differences between Bak Sing and Hung Sing is the curriculum -- being that Hung Sing's is comparatively very extensive, some branches including weapons as rare as the short crutch (similar to the tonfa) and possessing a traditional drunken form, while Bak Sing has a very compact curriculum, with only one weapon form for the staff -- is this correct?

[DF]

In kung fu, the system lie in the hand sets, all weapons are borrowed.

DF

[hskwarrior]

but couldn't the buk sing branch begin creating forms they don't have much the same way jeong yim and chan heung did?

many of the sets were created by them, then passed down to their students.

the head of each branch or school should be responsible for advancing their style or should i say evolve. i would like to see how the buk sing branch with all their knowledge on fighting would put together something they can say is all their own.

hsk

[DF]

Frank,

I think what you said hold true in all three branches of CLF. We all take what had been tested and refine them and continously testing and refineing.

DF

[hskwarrior]

and i believe thats where the differences lie. but the similarities are right there along with it.

one day i hope a choy lee fut summit can happen where all 3 branches can get together and compare, not compete, but compare and share.

it would also be great to see how different schools of the same branch compares to one another. I mean we all have different likes and dislike when it comes to usage.

we can all learn from each other and if we had a summit with only teachers of schools, then they can go back to their students and share what they learned.

someday.


hsk

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

One obvious thing I notice is the difference between Bak Sing and Fut San Hung Sing vs. Chan Family is the that Chan Family uses the "double puhn kiuh" also known as "daat jeung, gok ahn." Maybe I am wrong about Fut San Hung Sing not using this technique but its like everywhere in the LKH forms.

Another thing I notice is the more blatant extension and whipping motion in Bak Sing. To me this looks very ugly, slow and a good way to hyper extend your joints. I've always been taught that everything should move together. Some parts may move in front of other parts but they all move in concert. Also, not too extended or you set yourself up for a joint lock.

The original post by Frank McCarthy was a question on CLF differences between Branches, so people could exchange Informative, Constructive Ideas, Information and Knowledge…


RESPONSE

FU POW - Made this Personal!!!

Blatant Whipping Power generated thru the feet, legs, waist, hips shoulders and Extension to penetrate thru a target are just two of the obvious characteristics of Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut. There are many more!!!

Fu Pow...... to me YOU LOOK VERY F***ING UGLY!!! ( My Opinion!!!)

You don't know Buck Sing so why speak ill of it?

There is no way on earth that YOU will ever be able to joint lock a Buck Sing Fighter!!! You Will be hit and you would not know with what and how many times!!!

Buck Sing slow???? What type of FOOL r u!!!???

Everyone has heard and knows of Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoons Speed, Power and Aggressiveness and its Fierce reputation as a Fighting Style! Does the Buck Sing Gwoons, Grandmaster and Founder Tarm Sarm ring a bell !!!??? Remember how he plundered throughout China beating his opponents and gaining notoriety for the Buck Sing Gwoon and the Choy Lay Fut Style!!! How about the Five Black Panthers ( all of whom are Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut Masters and Fighters) who fought and won against other styles!!!??? Any Alarm Bells Yet??? The Buck Sing Style of Choy Lay Fut is well known and famous for its Speed, Power, and Aggressiveness!!!

Where have u been? What have u been Smoking? What planet are you on?

What r u trying to so foolishly and stupidly start here???!!!

Every style of Martial Arts is good and has its merits! It depends on the person behind it!!!

Some people are better fighters, others are better at forms, others just love the style and practice for good health and just for pure enjoyment. Some Masters are Great Fighters, others Great Teachers, others Great at Forms whilst others Great at Everything…… Why mock them? Why speak ill of Buck Sing?

The Choy Lay Fut Style - whether it be Chan/Hung Sing/Buck Sing is a formidable fighting Style! YOU should be proud and speak well of our style!

So again I ask: Why speak ill and criticise Buck Sing? Shouldn’t we all be respectful and live in unity as we all belong to the same big strong family?

If you are speaking ill of Buck Sing because YOU want to fight/cause trouble, let me know and I will MORE than happily oblige YOU and demonstrate on YOU its Speed, Beauty, Power, Extension and Destructiveness!

Buck Sing Gwoon Australia,
Nick

[TenTigers]

I think Nick is pointing out a truism that we can all relate to. We have the option of reading our posts before hitting the "post reply" button. Seeing that the topic of this discussion was to compare the different branches' differences and similarities, thus sharing our Gung-Fu-and not simply a pi$$ing match, perhaps some tactful rephrasing would be of benefit.
It is far less offensive to say,"I am not comfortable with this" or "I prefer this type of movement" or "wouldn't this occur if you had this type of extension.."
I am not talking of censoring, or putting words in your mouth, I am talking of having a dialogue that does not deteriorate to mud-slinging and challenges. After all, Frank did this and his efforts in the website to PROMOTE UNITY.
My thoughts are as such-as far as the extension of BSCLF movements, I don't think it would have continued if it placed the fighter in a vulnerable position. The challenge fights that BSCLF is known for has proven this, so it is not an issue.
It would be very informative if Nick,DF, and other BSCLF practitioners could go into some detail as to the hows and whys?

The other thing is, I have a request-and that is that Fu-Pow recognizes Nicks comments, but does not repond in a way that will only turn this thread into what has been going on on this forum as of late. I think when we get caught up in our Bull$hit, we create more, and we forget why we are here. Recognize it, and let it go, and let's just move on from there.-
-just a suggestion.
(feel free to tell me to eff myself :-)

[hskwarrior]

Buck Sing Gwoon,

let me apologize for the old but still young fu pow. it's not his fault, but like many others, if it's not Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut then these people over look it as something like second and third best.

Many have not seen the Hung Sing and Buk Sing lineages in action too much because we ARE fighters. In most cases there's no need for us to compete, because we don't train for competition......we train to fight. And, for both Hung Sing and Buk Sing (not leaving out the Chan Family) who are more OPENLY aggressive with its approaches to usage we are known fighters.

I say this because I have spent some time with the General discussing how we would use techniques and I have come to realize that ......"if you teacher likes to fight he will always approach using CLF from a fighters point of view whether it be forms or fighting.

Now, Fu Pow is among those who have never seen too much BSCLF and he compares it to his own knowledge. We have to remember, what he said was "HIS" opinion. Just as if i said that i don't like the way the LKH lineages does that long Kneel horse where their knees, shin ankle are all on the floor. Its not how "I" would use it, but I'm not saying they are wrong. Its just the way "THEY" do it.

Now Fu Pow offered his opion about what he doesn't like about BSCLF as if it matters to anyone. Or as if his words carry weight. (no disrespect intended fu pow) . We have to remember "Opinions" are like Arse Holes.....we all have one.

If Fu Pow doesn't like the long extended movements of BSCLF, then that's fine. He doesn't have to execute "his" CLF that way. But......the Buk Sing Kwoon knows why they train long like that. for example, training to strike long will greatly enhance you ability to strike shorter. See Fu Pow, even in our school (meaning lau buns CLF) we extended in forms and what not, and it's a great tool to keep someone at a distance as well. But's i highly doubt you will see Buk Sing or Hung Sing use real long and extended movements in real life combat. and if we do, it will always have a backup plan.

Actually, there's a lot in CLF i don't like, so i modify it to fit me. however, what works for me may not work for you.

anyways, what I'm trying to say is Buck Sing Gwoon......"Please give Fu Pow a pass" and Fu Pow, you should try and open your mind to the possibilities of the greatness of our style if you were to look outside the box and see how other teachers do things because you may like their way which might fit you better than what your current sifu is giving you. you won't have to leave your sifu, just adopt a way that is custom fit to you.

Fu Pow, not once have you seen Buk Sing doing any spar forms or Techniques demonstrations....very rarely if you do...............but you are only basing your opinion from hand forms. Please in the future look outside your CHan Heung Box, and see Choy Lee Fut for what it is............Neither one of us is the reincarnation of Chan Heung, Hung Sing, or Tam Sam.........focus on CLF today and see whats out there. be open, be like watah my friend. go with the flow.

as i've said Buck Sing Gwoon, I apologize for Fu Pow's near sighted comments.

Frank McCarthy

[hskwarrior]

By the way eddie,

thanks for mentioning the website which i get to segway into telling you guys to check out this site now:

http://www.3famclflinks.zoomshare.com

One of my classmates in another country is helping me fix it up.

but there are some video clips, history, articles, and such on this site.

please someone tell me what you think. ............hurry

peace.