Judas: A True Blue Hero

[Shaolinlueb]

There's also a theory that Jesus traveled extensively along the silk trade routes prior to his Gospel and that explains many of his teachings bearing a striking resemblance to Buddhist teachings.

yep yep. heard that too.

[KC Elbows]

yep yep. heard that too.

Isn't it commonly believed that Thomas did that? Maybe I'm thinking the wrong disciple, but I recall reading that one disciple who has a gnostic gospel was considered the "link" between East and middle east or some such thing, and I was thinking it was Thomas.

[Anthony]

"The concept of faith based salvation makes Christians lazy. They don't have to know the history or be able to articulate why they believe something. They just have to believe."

I think you have the wrong understanding about that. You don't just get saved because you believe or have faith.....that's a prerequisite....you then have to act (the hard part) upon that faith. It's about your actions more than your knowledge of facts. I can believe in Jesus but if I act evil it ain't gonna help. I honestly think that Christianity is the hardest religion to adhere to (that's up to debate of course). If any of you have questions, read a book first (doubt you'll do that) or go to church and listen to a sermon to see what is being said.

We study our religion, it's not that we don't try to learn more (that's never been true). The inspiration of the religion is more important than the facts. Facts are good for arguing with wise a-sses that don't want to accomplish anything other than make you feel stupid. I don't bother with people like that. I have my faith and if some hater wants to challenge me I just direct him to a Biblical scholar, book or Professor who knows more. There are plenty of them. I can keep learning about my religion it's just that unless I dedicate alot of time to it I can't debate fact upon fact. I don't want to, to me, it's about the message.


"although that sounds plausible, go talk to a muslim. Not only will he know the koran inside and out, he will also likely know the bible better than you will. If they can learn in such depth, why can't a christian?"

Good point, but who knows. I see Muslims reading the Koran on the subway all the time. I'll be the first to tell you that Christians should act more like Christians.

[FuXnDajenariht]

KC Elbows and FuXnDajenariht (or anyone else who posts here), could I ask if you guys are Catholic? I'm not trying to make a point or anything, just curious to know who is commenting.

If you don't mind, also, what is the extent of your religious education? Mine is all through grade school and college.

Thanx.

I always had a deep interest in christianity but now has more to do with my interest in history. I had my christian education forced upon me like most kids. I tried the model christian thing for a while but i found it empty and lacking something, for me personally. When i tried to ask simple questions about my faith to the people around me all i got was hostility or cop out answers like "its because the bible says so". That wasn't good enough for me though, so i resigned myself to being an atheist or agnostic. That was up until a couple years ago when i started researching other religions that i find more compatible with my thinking. Then i heard about Gnostic "heresies", and after only reading a few lines it felt like the missing piece that no one seemed to be able to satisfy my questions with. Its much more in line with my feelings and thoughts regarding religion, and it gives christianity so much more depth in my opinion and gives new meaning to other things in the bible.

lol Who knows. If Gnostics and what i believe were Jesus' true words represented Christianity i might very well had been the biggest Jesus-freak in my family today. As of now though, i have a healthy respect for their beliefs. I think it maybe says something about his teachings if as distorted as they most likely were and are it still draws billions of people around the world. lol or that could be generations of fear and paranoia.......

[Judge Pen]

"The concept of faith based salvation makes Christians lazy. They don't have to know the history or be able to articulate why they believe something. They just have to believe."

I think you have the wrong understanding about that. You don't just get saved because you believe or have faith.....that's a prerequisite....you then have to act (the hard part) upon that faith. It's about your actions more than your knowledge of facts. I can believe in Jesus but if I act evil it ain't gonna help. I honestly think that Christianity is the hardest religion to adhere to (that's up to debate of course). .

I was generalizing a bit. There's a major split among protestant faiths that involve what I've heard called "Positive salvation" or "once saved, always saved." Can one negligently lose their salvation? Works vs. faith. It's a pretty heated debate in some circles.

Not to step on either's toes, I was being a bit vauge with that statement--faith is more than a slient belief, (after all, don't the demons in hell "believe") but some groups certainly believe that once you make that commitment you are saved even if your later actions aren't necessarily in confomity--you are human and you will still sin--but as long as you still believe and repent from your sins then you still have your salvation. That's the argument, anyway.

If any of you have questions, read a book first (doubt you'll do that) or go to church and listen to a sermon to see what is being said.

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Can't people debate a point on a public forum without being considered closed minded or uninformed? I'm sure there are more open-minded christians here then you would think.

[Anthony]

"That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Can't people debate a point on a public forum without being considered closed minded or uninformed? I'm sure there are more open-minded christians here then you would think."

Yes...I agree. I was going to go back and edit that sentence out because it came right after a paragraph that I deleted and that part should have been deleted with it. When I submitted the reply I realised the sentence was in there and for some reason the "edit" option wasn't there. Notice how the sentence seems to come out of nowhere.

I forget exactly what I was saying but I think it had to do with people who (not really anyone here) weren't necessarily interested one way or the other in Christianity. So the first negative thing they hear (as unlikely as it may sound), they are quick to accept as fact and repeat it back to you in an effort to antagonize you. They don't want to learn anything about the religion, they just want to pizz you off because it's not "their" religion. Anyway, it was a bit of a rant so I deleted it. So, that's why I said to them: "If any of you have questions, read a book first (doubt you'll do that) or go to church and listen to a sermon to see what is being said. " Which pretty much means that sometimes people obsess over facts before seeing the inspirational aspect or the message which may be more important to some people.

[KC Elbows]

Judge,

I don't think angels have the same option for belief: they know. Same with demons, at least that was always my understanding of the catholic view on it.

[FuXnDajenariht]

But you guys are missing one important thing.

these 'artifacts' of ancient documents are of "stories" about
this character we call Jesus Christ.
They aren't historical events they are writting about.
They are the equivalent of fables.

.............

I read most of what he had to say Sal and he frankly seems like a bit of a nutjob. You have some who say of course Jesus never existed and others who says he without a doubt did. I think most historians agree hes a mix of an actual historical figure, maybe more than one and of folk legends and myths. But i think thats missing the point.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Whats this general consensus that you speak of? Theres a lot of evidence and i mean alot to point the fact that the Orthodox church decided to "make sh!t up" as you put it. The Council of Nicea seems to have been an entire meeting dedicated to making sh!t up.

Is anything written in non-canonical scriptures really sillier than some of the things Catholics claim and believe in? These "frauds" somehow have the same age-frame and lineage as any bible gospel, written in the same ancient languages.

Those Gnostics must of really had it in for them orthodox christians. They sure went through a hell of a lot of trouble to repress and substitute the truth for lies. They must have been part of that world wide conspiracy against Christians. Still telling lies and deceiving people.....oh wait no....they were wiped out of existence. i forgot. aww sh!t....guess thats not it.

[Judge Pen]

Judge,

I don't think angels have the same option for belief: they know. Same with demons, at least that was always my understanding of the catholic view on it.

It goes to free-will--the option to believe or not to believe and then the option to follow or not follow. Angels don't have free-will and demons are nothing but fallen angels, right? But the demons chose to revolt under the leadership of Lucifer; to try to overthrow heaven. So they developed free-will at some point; didn't they?

[kwaichang]

Perhaps unless someone has a theology degree they should stick to discussing martial arts, this is KUNG FU FORUM isnt it ?? KC

[MasterKiller]

It goes to free-will--the option to believe or not to believe and then the option to follow or not follow. Angels don't have free-will and demons are nothing but fallen angels, right? But the demons chose to revolt under the leadership of Lucifer; to try to overthrow heaven. So they developed free-will at some point; didn't they?

I don't think that's what KC is saying. Angels have free will, but they don't have an option to not believe because they are in God's presence all the time; there is no doubt in their minds God exists.

Satan has free will before the fall; otherwise, he could not have chosen to rebel.

[SevenStar]

I think you have the wrong understanding about that. You don't just get saved because you believe or have faith.....that's a prerequisite....you then have to act (the hard part) upon that faith. It's about your actions more than your knowledge of facts. I can believe in Jesus but if I act evil it ain't gonna help. I honestly think that Christianity is the hardest religion to adhere to (that's up to debate of course). If any of you have questions, read a book first (doubt you'll do that) or go to church and listen to a sermon to see what is being said.

It's hard trying to follow everything verbatim, but if you repent, you are forgiven. That makes it much easier. There was a man in the bible... I'm trying to think of his name... He strayed from God and ended up living in the mountains with his daughter (or some relative... daughter is in my mind). He was having sex with her and it was still said that he died a holy man.

Good point, but who knows. I see Muslims reading the Koran on the subway all the time. I'll be the first to tell you that Christians should act more like Christians.

which is part of the joke of christianity now. It's no different from the joke of TMA. it has been massively degraded over time. most christians just go to church and say "I'm a christian." I see many of those same people drunk as he11 on saturday night at my club talking about leaving early so they can go to church in the morning. The thing with christianity is that once you have been saved, if you repent, it's said that you will still go to heaven. That is the biggest and worst possible loophole you can give a person. That's why they say that being faith based makes you lazy. I know "christians" who can't even tell me how many books are in the old testament...

[SevenStar]

Perhaps unless someone has a theology degree they should stick to discussing martial arts, this is KUNG FU FORUM isnt it ?? KC

or perhaps those not interested should not read the thread... notice that ALL of the forums here are MA related. This one is the most general of them. Such discussion SHOULD be here in the most general forum.

[Judge Pen]

I can't tell you how many books there are in the Old Testament without looking it up, but I've read them all at one time.