f Cung Le is successful in MMA, what effects on CMA will his success have?

[lkfmdc]

This thread is now officially retarded and I am afraid posting on it will lower my IQ, but I MUST state the bloody obvious

The UFC is not the world!

There are other events like the IVC... you know, in Brazil, ie also legit. In one IVC three members of the northern shaolin school, also members of Brazil's San Shou/San Da team, beat three Gracie Barra guys... KO's standing... there are other examples... not that it really matters but to derive "truth" from the early UFC's is a flawed premise at best

[Shaolindynasty]

I also heard Gordeau was not a savtate guy. He was a Kyokushin guy, he even has it tatooed on his arm. I suspect that allot of those early guys reped for styles they didn't train.

[metsubushi]

What a clusterfuk

[SevenStar]

This thread is now officially retarded and I am afraid posting on it will lower my IQ, but I MUST state the bloody obvious

The UFC is not the world!

There are other events like the IVC... you know, in Brazil, ie also legit. In one IVC three members of the northern shaolin school, also members of Brazil's San Shou/San Da team, beat three Gracie Barra guys... KO's standing... there are other examples... not that it really matters but to derive "truth" from the early UFC's is a flawed premise at best

whoa, gorilla man. read what he said - he mentioned that in early UFCs tma did pretty good. nothing more, nothing less. so now we have the first 8 or so UFCs stating how tma guys actually did.

Now, go back to swinging on vines and pounding your chest.

[lkfmdc]

The early UFC's are flawed at best. I'm not saying they were fixed, but Rorion Gacie did hand pick the contestants. He wanted "pure stylists" to prove his point and the promotion company then added in BS to hype the show... one thing can definitely be said, they did NOT pick the best well rounded fighters they could find...

Ever seen the first AFC in Russia? Done about the same time... sure, had a few beer gut old geezers and brawlers, but also had some guys with legit skills sets, combat sambo guys, cross trained guys etc...

Even the short lived EFC had better rounded athletes ... ever seen Paulson vs Hume? compared to similar period UFC matches

From my point of view, UFC proved a few basic CMA concepts, ie that you shouldn't be either a striker or a grappler, you need both. Sure did prove how effective elbows and head butts were. And, yes, showed many in TMA that they were not the deadly people they thought they were

[metsubushi]

I think TMA did wellin the early UFC's, because according to the current zeitgeist, Royce Gracie is not a Mixed Martial Artist(which is absolutely ridiculous) and won more than once thanks to the use of his Gi. And even though he beat other traditional guys like Keith Hackney and so forth, they landed some really good shots at times, and your average non professional fighter would not necessarily be able to weather the storm and score the takedown regardless. At the end of the day, those were fighters getting beat, not styles. No question, Royce's style played a huge part in his victories, it was something that his competitors weren't used to being up against, but as time goes on this isn't the case. He's exposed a weakness in the fight plan of most stand up fighters by taking them to an area they were unfamiliar with and beating them with his own tradition,. Which is really what any good fighter does, and now people are adapting to that by either implementing it into their own overall fight plan, or simply learning to defend against it by way of sprawls and so forth.

When Sakuraba destroys Royce Gracie with low kicks, that does not prove the superiority of kicking or catch wrestling, or whatever the ****. When Silva busted Sakuraba's shoulder with the slam, did that prove the superiority of BJJ or Muay Thai? Neither! You don't see alot of Gung Fu in the UFC, so what? What's that suppossed to prove? Will a win by a chinese martial artist suddenly validate(if they're considered invalid) chinese martial arts? Is old fashioned boxing now deemed useless because no boxers are MMA champions? That's beyond retarded. These arguments are full of people who are considering themselves successful by association(on all sides really), and outside of vain imaginations, that doesn't mean anything. The success of a Silva or Cro Cop is not transferrable to kickboxers the world over. The success of a Gracie is not transferrable to all BJJ students in the galaxy. They're professional fighters, you(in the general sense) probably aren't. They aren't validating systems, get real. They're proving their worth as individual fighters. Whoever connects with something significant will probably win, no style in the world guarantees you that significant shot. You aren't going to win fights just because you train in the same system as a celebrity. Whether it's Wanderlei Silva, Royce Gracie, Ernesto Hoost, Cung Le, or Li Shu Wen.

[SevenStar]

I think TMA did wellin the early UFC's, because according to the current zeitgeist, Royce Gracie is not a Mixed Martial Artist(which is absolutely ridiculous) and won more than once thanks to the use of his Gi.

If you ask royce (I have) he will tell you that he is not an mma. He doesn't crosstrain in striking. He is a bjj guy that enters mma competitions.

At the end of the day, those were fighters getting beat, not styles.

that's never really been in question. But on a whole, TMA guys do more losing than winning. To kickboxing, bjj and muay thai. that's where the style part started coming in. Why were the sport guys winning and the TMA losing? their training methods.

You don't see alot of Gung Fu in the UFC, so what? What's that suppossed to prove? Will a win by a chinese martial artist suddenly validate(if they're considered invalid) chinese martial arts?

honestly, I think more people would be prone to train cma if cma were doing well in competitions. It would also bring it more into the public eye because more of them would begin competing.

Is old fashioned boxing now deemed useless because no boxers are MMA champions?

several mma crosstrain boxing. Two off the top of my head are goodridge and buentello. goodridge was the national boxing champ in canada. both have been championship contenders in mma.

[lkfmdc]

If you ask royce (I have) he will tell you that he is not an mma. He doesn't crosstrain in striking.

I'm sure that's what he says, but it isn't true He has a kickboxing coach he works regularly with and in the old Torrance days they had a boxing trainer.

[metsubushi]

If you ask royce (I have) he will tell you that he is not an mma. He doesn't crosstrain in striking. He is a bjj guy that enters mma competitions.

Yet he's quick to bring up his black belt in Karate and his kickboxing training when someone says he's one dimensional or outdated.

that's never really been in question. But on a whole, TMA guys do more losing than winning. To kickboxing, bjj and muay thai. that's where the style part started coming in. Why were the sport guys winning and the TMA losing? their training methods.

See, like I said before, that's one hell of a big grey area to me. Bjj and Muay Thai are traditional as far as I'm concerned. They use the same training methods and techniques they've been using for decades/ hundreds of years. As far as why the sport guys were winning and the other guys weren't. I can't say that I have deep knowledge on the training methods of all traditional strikers who have ever entered the UFC. Am I suppossed to assume that they didn't spar? Why? Royce's style was older and more traditional than all of the western kickboxers he faced and those kicboxers fought full contact quite often. He beat them just like he beat the "forms guys"(if the 'forms exclusive' guys even existed). So the idea that they didn't spar or train realistically is absurd to me.

I think they lost because they were up against the better(at least that night and in that arena) man. They were in his house, fighting on his terms, against a way of fighting that they hadn't encountered much, if at all. Royce is from a fighting family, they weren't. Royce made them play his game. While it was harder for them to make him play their game, because his style wasn't something they encountered often. For them, it was similar to the confusion a righty suffers when facing a southpaw. Fighting stand up guys is what he did, and had been doing for a long time.

He didn't force them to play his game because of BJJ alone. He did that because of his family, his pride, and his mental toughness. He could take some shots before the takedown, whereas some of the other Gracie guys can't do that as well(like Cesar Vs Shamrock). There are tons of reasons the UFC guys lost, but chief among them, is they were outclassed. All of the conjecture about their fantasies and unrealistic training methods holds no ground with me. Look at other tournaments like K-1. Karate guys stand up to kickboxers just fine. As far as the big picture, who cares what happened to random Karate guy #4 and Random TKD/Kickboxer #7 in the early UFC. Those guys weren't the saviors of their systems or anything like that. They're just fighters who lost some matches. People lose, big deal.

honestly, I think more people would be prone to train cma if cma were doing well in competitions. It would also bring it more into the public eye because more of them would begin competing.

I agree with this, but honestly, popularity stinks.

several mma crosstrain boxing. Two off the top of my head are goodridge and buentello. goodridge was the national boxing champ in canada. both have been championship contenders in mma.

Yeah, but is Goodridge really a boxer? Helllllllll no lol. He's a heavy hitter, plain and simple. He's a heck of a knock out artist, but his idea of a combination is dropping his hands and throwing rapid fire haymakers. If boxing gave him anything, it's conditioning and the idea of a target(chin). It works for him though, no question.

[SevenStar]

I'm sure that's what he says, but it isn't true He has a kickboxing coach he works regularly with and in the old Torrance days they had a boxing trainer.

do you know to what extent it was though? his striking leaves a lot to be desired, but I have seen few who can roll with a punch as well as he can...

[SevenStar]

See, like I said before, that's one hell of a big grey area to me. Bjj and Muay Thai are traditional as far as I'm concerned. They use the same training methods and techniques they've been using for decades/ hundreds of years. As far as why the sport guys were winning and the other guys weren't. I can't say that I have deep knowledge on the training methods of all traditional strikers who have ever entered the UFC. Am I suppossed to assume that they didn't spar? Why? Royce's style was older and more traditional than all of the western kickboxers he faced and those kicboxers fought full contact quite often. He beat them just like he beat the "forms guys"(if the 'forms exclusive' guys even existed). So the idea that they didn't spar or train realistically is absurd to me.

yeah, very grey. Different people have different definitions of what is traditional and what is modern. However, muay thai didn't exist in the form that we know before the 1920's so I wouldn't call it traditional in any sense. By the same token, I don't really consider TKD as traditional, even though they wear gi's, work forms, etc. BUT, because of what they do, I do lump them in the traditional category... very grey...

as for bjj, it came from judo. judo guys sparred plenty, which is what aided them in defeating the jjj guys in various competitions. the idea of sparring likely would've carried over to bjj. On the same token, it's no secret that exponents like funakoshi were against adding sparring to their curriculums, as they thought it would water down the system. So no, not all of the more traditional types sparred. and not all do to this day, although I'm betting that it's more of a rarity now.

I think they lost because they were up against the better(at least that night and in that arena) man. They were in his house, fighting on his terms, against a way of fighting that they hadn't encountered much, if at all. Royce is from a fighting family, they weren't. Royce made them play his game. While it was harder for them to make him play their game, because his style wasn't something they encountered often. For them, it was similar to the confusion a righty suffers when facing a southpaw. Fighting stand up guys is what he did, and had been doing for a long time.

I don't disagree with that.

Karate guys stand up to kickboxers just fine.

aren't most of them kyokushin - the system that not only is known for fighting a lot, but has thai influence after oyama traveled to thailand?

As far as the big picture, who cares what happened to random Karate guy #4 and Random TKD/Kickboxer #7 in the early UFC. Those guys weren't the saviors of their systems or anything like that. They're just fighters who lost some matches. People lose, big deal.

I completely agree. I just think it's odd how you hear "they weren't real TMA guys anyway"... they lost. Don't make an excuse for it. in the grand scheme of things, life goes on.

[SimonM]

See, like I said before, that's one hell of a big grey area to me. Bjj and Muay Thai are traditional as far as I'm concerned.

I was about to say that but metsubushi beat me to the punch. I agree. BJJ and MT are not in any way non-TMA except that people who do these arts like to cultivate an air of superiority to "outdated" TMAs.

[SevenStar]

No. muay thai, bjj, tkd... they are all less than 100 years old. they are really not traditional at all. I mentioned above why they get lumped into the traditional category. judo really isn't traditional either. Also, what they wear, how they train, the fact that they are used in sportive format... These are all reasons why they are not considered traditional. Now, age wise, boxing and wrestling would be quite traditional, but sportive format and method of training throws them into the modern group as well. It really has nothing to do with proving superiority. Hell, the record books do all the proving, regardless of whether or not it's labeled modern.

[SimonM]

No. muay thai, bjj, tkd... they are all less than 100 years old. they are really not traditional at all. I mentioned above why they get lumped into the traditional category. judo really isn't traditional either. Also, what they wear, how they train, the fact that they are used in sportive format... These are all reasons why they are not considered traditional. Now, age wise, boxing and wrestling would be quite traditional, but sportive format and method of training throws them into the modern group as well. It really has nothing to do with proving superiority. Hell, the record books do all the proving, regardless of whether or not it's labeled modern.

Awh, come on, no martial art has stayed static for even 50 years. Muay Thai may have changed in the last century but it still existed in some form prior.

[SevenStar]

Awh, come on, no martial art has stayed static for even 50 years. Muay Thai may have changed in the last century but it still existed in some form prior.

what it existed as is irrelevant. it wasn't muay thai. now, the older versions - muay chaiya, muay lon lon, etc. yeah, I would consider them traditional. but they were not muay thai. muay thai emerged in the 1920's.