Hypocrisy: David Jamieson's post

[hasayfu]

DJ posted this on another thread and I didn't want to sidetrack the original...

all bickering aside....lol, sometimes it seems like there are larger family camp members of certain Hung Lineages who simply refuse to accept that Hung is wider and ****her spread than their own families.

some even go so far as to compose charts that only include those lines connected to LSW and his students with the possible exception of one or two others, although they are rare to find.

I would add that if WL doesn't want people to add him to their lineage then maybe he should stopp selling memberships in his federation for 40 bucks a year and tapes of his sets that walk you through entire systems.

TO put that out there, let people have it, then tell everyone that you have nothing to do with the person who has obviously trained in yoru material is on a level of equal culpability in my opinion.

no offense intended, but if you want to keep your stuff a secret and want to be special and closed door, then do that or get off the pot.

Wing Lam has done a good thing for putting all that material out there regardless of his motivations to do so be it one or the other or a little of both (spread the art/ make some bank or both)

there are a lot of firecrackers out there who get cheesed about people who do the correspondence traing with WLE.

WLE will sell you certificates from training in his tapes, there are some small requirements and you would have to only see him once or twice over the course of the whole thing.

So before we go dissing the people who take WLE up on that offer, lets look at some root causality first?

Hypocricy doesn't look good on anyone on either side of theungfu fence and quite frankly, I think there are far too many lineage wh0res to begin with. lol

David, I hope things are going well for you. Really. A few of your most recent posts have had this edge on them that seems angrier then before. I could, however, just be reading too much into them since most are responses directed at things I've said

This particular post was in response to my comments concerning a certain indivdual who used to claim direct and extended training with Sifu Wing Lam. WLKF and WLE has never been about special, closed door or secret. Like you said, if it was about those things, why sell videos and have an open door policy at the kwoon with free lessons? So where is the Hypocrisy?

The issue at hand was not one of disowning or disavowing due to a personality conflict. It was a clear case of misrepresentation. The person in question (and by the way, this is the only person WLKF has ever had issue with) has misled students for a long time. The thread this quote was taken from is proof of that. I'm not even mentioning the outright lie to SiGung. This person has never met sifu. He may have trained diligently with the videos and others but HIS claim is to have been a long and close student.

I don't know the actual terms to joining the federation but let's go with yours. This makes the transgression worse (or at least more idiotic). Assuming that it's trivial to gain validity (which I'm not saying), why didn't this person do it? He has pictures with famous sifus from around the world and yet never contacted Wing Lam outside of christmas cards. Not once.

I could go on (and have in other places) but I'm past that person. He has started to correct the misrepresentation and applaud him for that. I also want to address the hypocrisy statement. I agree that Hung Gar is a wide family. As you know from WLKF students on various forums we support the dissemination of knowldege and sharing within the brotherhood. At the same time, making claims that are unsubstantiated to promote oneself should be called out.

[GeneChing]

I have to correct my shidi, hasayfu. There have been others. But that's no big deal. Any and every master that is a public figure - and by that I don't just mean has a video series - any master who has been featured in articles, books or does public seminars - has had issues with false lineage claims. From my professional perch, I see more of this then most practitioners. What's more, it's not exclusive to Hung Ga or even CMA by any means. It's pervasive through the entire field of MA. It's even emerging in our young'en, MMA. Such is human nature. Everyone wants to be associated with excellent masters. It would be preposterous not to wish so.

Lineage is solely at the discretion of the master. He or she can chose to pass down the lineage to whomever. It can be a long-time diligent student, one who has been with the master since the very beginning. Or - and this is the big OR - it can be someone entirely new that simply 'gets it.' If you want a classic example, I'll cite the case of the sixth patriarch of Zen. Like the prodigal son, this is an allegory that is very hard to digest, especially if you are that long-time diligent student. It's not fair, but sometimes the reality of the situation, especially when it comes to inheritance, is not fair.

That being said, it could be withint the realm of possibilities that a master might pass his or her lineage down to a video student in this day and age. It's unlikely, but justifiable. For an example within WLKF, subatai, who frequents this forum occassionally, began a video student of Sifu Lam. He was dedicated enough to relocate and train extensively under him, but even if he had not done that, he came into that WLKF with enough skill to make a solid claim to our lineage, assuming Sifu Lam granted his blessing.

The key point is that lineage is not about the individual. It's not a popularity contest between teacher's favorites, although that's who students generally perceive it. It's about transmission of a fire, or a light to go back to the sixth patriarch. Ego must dissolve.

[David Jamieson]

I wasn't attacking wle for making tapes or doing his correspondence training course or any of that.

But I think that the person in question, despite whatever claims he has made probably has spent a good deal of time with the materials.

I think that it needs to be realized thatif you produce something with the intent that it is used, then it shouldn't be criticized when it is used. It should also be understood that whatever you put out there, for whatever reasons isn't really something that you can be sure is yours anymore.

there are people who claim to have studied with others when they have not, there are people who wait until they get their chance to seize position in an organization (many examples of this where a "style bearer" is unnanounced)

misrepresentation in this case is more a pecadillo sized sin of ommision. The work has apparently been done and the kungfu has again been propogated. face was given to the source, although that became a note of contention apparently, who really knows why? Perhaps it was thought (well, if all the stuff i learned came from this source, then that source is where i learned it and ergo, that's the sifu) The vcr is not the sifu, the sifu on the tape is the sifu. If a person doesn't want to be associated to people who study their material, then why put it out? And why claim it's everything you need to advance to such and such a level and beyond and so on?

Takes two to tango, if one side didn't precede the other the problem wouldn't exist.

ultimately, it's between those two guys

[Subitai]

Kung Lek…David, Former Wes Guy...

I used to think you were pretty cool. I know I’m nobody myself but for what it's worth, I’m disappointed in you.

You of all people who have somewhat followed what had happened to Curtis Kautzman(over various boards) for the last couple of years. You pretty much know what HSF and I have said about him. And I would hope that you understand why.

Why is all this coming from you anyway??? IS this one Canadian defending another? Your posts seem more personal as of late.

Facts:

1) Gene is an OLD timer (no offense) so he has extensive knowledge of WLKF prior to both HSF and I being there. If he wants to cite examples over us, I'll say nothing and give him face, he's earned it.

But still TO MY KNOWLEDGE,

2) The only person that WE (as Wing Lam Students) have ever gone on to question authenticity public over forums about IS, none other than CURTIS.

ONE...that's not allot. And it wasn't in a malicious manner.

It was only when Curtis started to defend him self, UNJUSTIFIABLY I might add, that we took a more firm position.

3) For yrs, we never bothered Curtis. It all began when he tried to submit articles to Kung Fu Mag. that were nothing more that rehashed works of Genes Past Material.

What can I say Gene, when you write as much as you do, people just end up copying and pasting your stuff. Haha.

Curtis ended up passing it along to Inside Kung FU.

Then, people started asking us who "Is this guy"? "Is that how you guys do it"? We weren't mean about it. Curtis’s skill level was just not there. So we had to say that it wasn't representative of us, plain and simple.

Then when Curtis started to defend himself publicly we spoke out. That's it.

4) About videos and lineage and all that Jazz,

David you yourself own some of Wing Lams Vids, as does Wes own Ha Say Fu videos as well. I’m fairly certain I was the one who shipped them to him back in the day. Why don’t you claim SiFu Wing Lam as your sifu and propagate us with a fancy lineage chart on your own webpage? Do you see my point? We never bothered you or Wes. Even though shortly after we called out Curtis, Wes dropped his claim to HSF on his website.

The videos were not meant to subjugate students and build and empire, at least not in my mind. They were simply to HELP people. That’s it.

There are some people who learn from video that want to take it to another level. So they make an attempt to Legitimize themselves somewhat by ACTUALLY VISITING AND TRAINING WITH THE "SAID" SIFU AT LEAST ONE TIME. There is nothing wrong with this.

Be reasonable David, ONE TIME is not allot to ask if you want to be at Curtis’s level. That being someone who is not just located in an isolated Northern Local of Canada. But in fact, Curtis travels the GLOBE to spread his version of my sifus' heritage in tournaments and seminars. Yet he will not do him the honor of visiting him at least once.

And just for the record, it's not about MONEY.

When I gave up my potential career at Pfizer...sifu (at least I hope) realized my level of commitment and made me an instructor. So for the better part of seven yrs. I didn't pay him any money.

There is a saying "To be a sifu is to be poor". That's true, most cannot make a living by teaching Kung Fu alone. Especailly not now with Kung Fu on a low side from MMA. Excepting being people who run MCKWOONs with belts, contracts and auto Billing.

I don't have another trade, this is all I do and I scrap every day just to get by.


5) Lastly, CURTIS did a very BIG BIG NO NO in the world of martial arts.

It was back in 98' I do believe. SiGung Chiu Wai came to Lam Kwoon and showed Sifu Lam a letter. Supposedly the letter was from Wing Lam giving an introduction to Chiu Wai with the intent of letting him train with him.

Chiu Wai said, "Look at this...do you know him"?

Wing Lam said, "I never taught this man, I don't know him"

At that, Chiu Wai looked visibly upset...he trust being betrayed.

David, if you cannot see what crime he has committed and you don't think that we are justified in questioning Curtis. Then we are not on the same level of understanding.


Final thought:

This isn’t about lineage or Name dropping. In modern martial circles, Kung Fu seems to have a lower standing, with REAL Kung Fu being harder and harder to obtain. People take short cuts and are not willing to do the real work.

I disagree with you when you write this, “The work has apparently been done and the kungfu has again been propogated.”


Well I say not in a good way. Especially now in these times, all of us CMA are under scrutiny. We should all be trying are best to do it right.

“O”

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Former Wes guy what the heck is that supposed to mean.
What kind of fallacious smear campaign are you on. On my site and in the articles I wrote, I clearly said that I was taught a system that is very similar to HSF but also has some significant differences. I also said that in some circles is is called HSF and the system I know is very similar. It is still on my site. You or WLM has had no prior contact with me whatsoever.
Over the years I and some senior students ordered all kinds of tapes for students to view different styles and systems. I gave DJ quite a few. The tapes you mention, I was interested in myself as well so I could see how close/different it was to the one I do. In fact I recall ordering from you and you were quite rude. WLM should have trained you better in customer relations.
I do not claim WLM as my Sifu, as I did not learn from him or his tapes (although his tapes are very well done) and therefore neither can DJ to the best of my knowledge, unless he has started training under him.

I have to say it is really poor taste, bad judgement (and totally uncalled for) for you to bring my name into this.

Just for the record, I have no connection with CK.

You owe me an apology.

[hasayfu]

This thread is not going the way I had wanted it so I'm going to reign it in a bit.

I feel your frustration Subitai sihing though you did get off on a few tangents. Never did say you were the delicate type. LOL

Wes, not sure how you got dragged into this. Not sure why Subitai was dragged into this either.

Gene Sihing, thanks for the background and context. I'll let the blame fall on you for letting out Subitai. (as I casually step to the side)

But back to the topic at hand. DJ, you are entitled to your opinion about hypocrisy which is what I wanted to discuss in this thread. I just challenge your call. You said:

I think that it needs to be realized thatif you produce something with the intent that it is used, then it shouldn't be criticized when it is used. It should also be understood that whatever you put out there, for whatever reasons isn't really something that you can be sure is yours anymore.

Who's criticizing it's use? It should be used. It should be studied and discussed which is what I and my si-hing/dai do on these forums? So nothing hypocritical there.

misrepresentation in this case is more a pecadillo sized sin of ommision. The work has apparently been done and the kungfu has again been propogated. face was given to the source, although that became a note of contention apparently, who really knows why?

First saying that this is a small sin of ommision is really reducing the issue. Quoting his student in the other thread, he claimed to a current student that he "trained with both the Chiu family and with Wing Lam" This is the note of contention. Not that he is crediting Wing Lam as the source but he has built a story of being personally trained and close to the source. As Subitai points out, he continued to use that fantasy to gain access to SiGung Chui Wai. What's most sad about this is that he did not need to use subterfuge to gain access. SiGung is very open and would have done it anyways but the dishonesty has tainted him.

All that said, this is not about that person. It's about saying that by putting out learning material it's hypocritical to point out that someone who used the material has not actually visited the creator. That's all we have done. I have gone out of my way to say I am not commenting on his skill just his story.

So again, I ask, where is the hyposcrisy? Using your line of thinking, a kid who read Bruce's books and watched all his movies can claim he was personally trained by Bruce Lee and if people who were close to Bruce know it to be false, they should keep quiet since Bruce put his stuff out there to be used.

[David Jamieson]

"o"-

I can respect the point of view that deals with the issue of false representation.

Personally, I don't know what would motivate that in someone, I don't do it myself and I certainly am not directing any vitriol into the direction of anyone over the whole thing.

All Im saying is that if you are going to put something out there, then deal with the consequences of that good or bad.

My main point is that the producers of these tapes must take to bear their part of the responsibility in what becomes of that information they have tosse dout and they should probably expect that people will claim some sort of connection should they follow through with the instruction either in their own way or in the prescribed method as laid out in the conditions of the distance learning program.

I learned a great deal of things from books and teachers who never received direct transmission. Of this information, a great deal of it is quite reliable. I don't give my math teacher greif because he can explain the theory of relativity and never once met Albert Einstein. But I would raise an eyebrow if he said he studied at his feet.

Believe me, I do "get it". Rope was given to hang oneself? Or rope is given to start climbing? Which is it with the video tape business anyway?

as GHD has stated, I do indeed have one or two of wle's tapes and pretty much use them for watching more than as a learning tool. Video just isn't my bag and it's not my learning style, but I don't begrudge those who do learn from tapes or wherever, it doesn't matter really I guess.

But seeing as CK is making amends to the wlkff, how come he still gets pounced on? there are a lot of people who accuse others of using lams tapes as well. I've gone through it myself here in these forums. It's a hobby for some and in other groups it's even worse with neophytes going off on long time practitioners with only part of the information or worse, only a narrow perception of the reality of something.

Granted, these people are noobs and don't know better, but as we each grow into our arts that we choose to do and we practice and so on, i think the use of tapes to round out yourself isn't the crime it is portrayed to be. CK is only one small example from many others. Check what is said about the variouys defected monks. There are people who say they have no kungfu or no kungfu skill. Ha! People going on about Yan ming and what not is ludicrous, his performance wushu is superior to many peoples ten years of solid kungfu.

How about the constant and stupid lineage arguments that happen? What about the constant and stupid dis[paraging remarks made about other styles and practitioners.

So, in short, don't see me as defending anyone, I'm not. Everyone's responsible for their own soup ultimately, any indiscretion can be corrected and one must be aware that what they put out there will be perceived on many different levels than what was intended.

Wing Lam has always said he would teach in whatever way he could those who were entusiastic to learn. He has also gone on to produce and distribute a great deal of material for that purpose.

so, would it be true that if CK went to sunnyvale and demoinstrated what he knew the door would be open to him to restate that what he learned he learned from lam?

all this fuss over a visit or two? I don't think it's about that, but that's my perception.

and ghd has been dogged by all sorts of people over his stuff, cripes, even i had a falling out with him and am not part of that organization anymore. It certainly had nothing to do with the quality of the Kungfu.

so, ck makes his redactions and comes to a fuller understanding of how wle wants things to be in order to have connection with him. It's up to CK to either say, ok, ill do that, or to take what he has and continue on. Either way, he still has the material and he still can say where he learned it from and shouldn't be attacked for how he learned.

everyone has faults, everyone. It's a fact of life, it cannot be escaped, it cannot be washed away by pointing at others faults. Each of us will have ours and they will remain with us. the ramifications of what we do should probably be understood before we do some things, although that is often not the case.

[Subitai]

Former Wes guy what the heck is that supposed to mean.
What kind of fallacious smear campaign are you on. On my site and in the articles I wrote, I clearly said that I was taught a system that is very similar to HSF but also has some significant differences. I also said that in some circles is is called HSF and the system I know is very similar. It is still on my site. You or WLM has had no prior contact with me whatsoever.
Over the years I and some senior students ordered all kinds of tapes for students to view different styles and systems. I gave DJ quite a few. The tapes you mention, I was interested in myself as well so I could see how close/different it was to the one I do. In fact I recall ordering from you and you were quite rude. WLM should have trained you better in customer relations.
I do not claim WLM as my Sifu, as I did not learn from him or his tapes (although his tapes are very well done) and therefore neither can DJ to the best of my knowledge, unless he has started training under him.

I have to say it is really poor taste, bad judgement (and totally uncalled for) for you to bring my name into this.

Just for the record, I have no connection with CK.

You owe me an apology.

"O"= My father once told me..."If a man comes to your door and barks like a dog, treat him like one"

If I was rude to you in the past, you probably deserved it.

Over the four or so yrs I did work for WLE...you'd be hard pressed to find even a handfull of people I offended. For every one of you GHD, wle would have 1000 that support me and how well I represented my sifu over the phone. I know this from personal thanks rec'd from good shipping times, letters and advice.

You see, over time people began to talk to me like I was a bartender. But I never talked badly about anyone while I was working. I was always respectful. I think your lying. I only lash out now, many yrs later as is my right over a public forum.

BTW, I might be sifu Wing lams student. But I'm my own man now, so I speak for myself. Those who know me on any of the various boards know that I have never got into it like this before with anyone. Except for 2 jerks in the past..."WORD and Paul". But i'm calling the kettle black as I see it.

I remember your claims. I didn't intend to get into it with you but fire away. Cause I don't believe you. You started out HSF , then you changed your tune saying different...then you droped it all together. If I remember correctly you even quoted from an article... "Cough" about learning from your own Nefarious gangster having taught you.


I'm not afraid of you, one day i'll be in Vancouver for a family vacation. No hurry, 5 - 10 yrs from now or whatever. It doesn't have to be a fight unless you want it to be. Touching hands is enough. Then you can prove me wrong. IF you show me you know even remotely how to connect your body and display decent Kung Fu. Especially your NOW SIMILAR to HSF style... I'll not only shut up but put up and publicly apologize to you.

1000 bucks says you don't have to juice,
"O"