Anti Grappling Link

[lawrenceofidaho]

This link was posted on another forum, and thought it might be of interest to some here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...g+tsun&pl=true

[GungFuHillbilly]

Thanks for the link Lawrence!

I don't know the context of this clip (i.e., what they were originally trying to demonstrate)...however...

I would be curious to know what training the 'aggressor' had in grappling.

His shoots seemed to not be very aggressive and during some of the engagements when he was trying to force a joint lock the guy in the white shirt had some pretty huge openings that could have been easily exploited.

On a more general note about this topic...

IMHO one of the real weaknesses I see with a lot of martial arts schools is that the students attack each other using various 'styles' and they assume that this is a viable substitute for an attack by a competent fighter from that 'style'.

For example...a wing chun student with no background in boxing is asked to attack another student using a 'boxing hook' so that they can simulate defenses against boxing.

Exercise ensues and everyone feels warm and fuzzy because they feel they can now engage a boxer on the street and hold their own.

The same holds true for grappling...

I'm not saying that everyone has to go grapple with a Machado or Gracie in order to learn defenses against grappling. Just don't think that because you were able to defend yourself against Joe Schmoe [wing chun student with no other experience], that you can hold your own against a competent grappler.

Anyway, just a diatribe...

Any thoughts, comments?

-GFH

[reneritchie]

I wonder if BJJ forums post anti-standup links??

[lawrenceofidaho]

I wonder if BJJ forums post anti-standup links??

That's funny, but it's also kind of a sad.......

99% of the BJJ community do not consider cross-training "unnecessary", or worse, a "disrespectful affront to to their perfect and complete art" the way that some Wing Chun people do. I'm sure there are more than a few Wing Chun teachers that wouldn't encourage a student to do some training in other arts simply out of fear that it might possibly affect the rice bowl. (Lacking in confidence in their own abilities, it seems.)

[lawrenceofidaho]

His shoots seemed to not be very aggressive and during some of the engagements when he was trying to force a joint lock the guy in the white shirt had some pretty huge openings that could have been easily exploited.

I agree. Those were not the most realistic attacks.

IMHO one of the real weaknesses I see with a lot of martial arts schools is that the students attack each other using various 'styles' and they assume that this is a viable substitute for an attack by a competent fighter from that 'style'.

Might be okay for introducing techniques and some low level drilling, but real competency will not be achieved that way.

Exercise ensues and everyone feels warm and fuzzy because they feel they can now engage a boxer on the street and hold their own.

This is very irresponsible on the part of the instructor who would do this kind of cr@p, but unfortunately, I think this kind of practice is somewhat common.

I'm not saying that everyone has to go grapple with a Machado or Gracie in order to learn defenses against grappling. Just don't think that because you were able to defend yourself against Joe Schmoe [wing chun student with no other experience], that you can hold your own against a competent grappler.

If someone hasn't been on the mat with an athletic guy who has a purple or higher in Jiu Jitsu, or wrestled his way through the state championships in HS (or through college on a scholarship), etc. -they may very well be overestimating their abilities to deal with grappling attacks. The type of anti-grappling training done by many strikers will, at best, prepare them to deal with a drunken frat-boy tackle and perhaps a few aikido style locks they used to teach to cops & security guys (a couple of those types of things were seen in the video) -but overall, not much more than that. (There are some schools / orgs. which are exceptions, however.)

[GungFuHillbilly]

Might be okay for introducing techniques and some low level drilling, but real competency will not be achieved that way.


If someone hasn't been on the mat with an athletic guy who has a purple or higher in Jiu Jitsu, or wrestled his way through the state championships in HS (or through college on a scholarship), etc. -they may very well be overestimating their abilities to deal with grappling attacks.

I'm very much in agreement here. I'm not saying that wing chun schools should only train wing chun attacks...however I think a healthy perspective and realization that it is not wholly representative of different 'styles' of attack.

If your training with a beginning student your intent (energy) should be different than when you train your advanced students.

I think one of the problems is that most students don't feel comfortable ATTACKING 'the Sifu' in a realistic aggressive manner. Thus why the net is innundated with Sifu's who can magically beat the living cr@p out of their students and never once get hit!!! All the while making it seem like they are friggin' invincible...

That's why I think it's key to find a neutral ground where there's no sifu dynamnic and everyone can get past their egos.

I had a great situation when I lived in Phoenix, AZ. A friend of a friend trained under Christof Lindinger and was a really proficient grappler. We would all get together and just trade. He was really good about helping out and not letting you get away with junk.

-GFH

P.S. Lawrence, give a shout out to Justin for me. It's been too long...
Thanks!

[lawrenceofidaho]

I'm very much in agreement here. I'm not saying that wing chun schools should only train wing chun attacks...however I think a healthy perspective and realization that it is not wholly representative of different 'styles' of attack.

If your training with a beginning student your intent (energy) should be different than when you train your advanced students.

I think one of the problems is that most students don't feel comfortable ATTACKING 'the Sifu' in a realistic aggressive manner. Thus why the net is innundated with Sifu's who can magically beat the living cr@p out of their students and never once get hit!!! All the while making it seem like they are friggin' invincible...

Very well said.......

That's why I think it's key to find a neutral ground where there's no sifu dynamnic and everyone can get past their egos.

Or even better, -find a Sifu with no "sifu dynamic."

[Mr Punch]

The shoot in that video was terrible, as was the sprawl. Definitely nothing that will prepare you for a grappler, and a drunken fratboy would have a way more energetic and dangerous tackle than that.

I don't see the point of the halfhearted sprawl just so you can say you're staying on your feet. If you can't grapple, why not at least learn a decent sprawl sp you can sprawl his head into the concrete and then get up and kick him before you run away? Rather than that half-arsed nonsense that'll still get you dropped.

As for the locks, they were bs too. The point about the locks that LEOs are taught is that they are put on from a position where they already have your balance, where there are more than one of them, or where they are using a baton of some kind for extra leverage.

Why is it that wing chun people often assume that other people are always stupid enough to attack with two arms on one from a weaker position just because it's a staple no-no in wing chun principles? Nobody but a six-month aikidoka is gonna try a flying armbar (ikkyo) or small joint manipulation without setting it up with a punch or an unbalance (kuzushi) first. And I for one, am not afraid of anything a six-month aikidoka's got anyway!

All in all, this vid demo is pretty pointless. It shows defence against retards with no fighting skills.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mat's post about the vid is right on the money.

As for Sifus who encourage their students to do their best against them while sparring/rolling/chi sao, etc...as opposed to Sifus who don't...

the second group are a joke, imo.

But I have found through the years that the best way to go about this has to be an approach wherein all the possibilities are covered - and at the right moments.

There are times when I want my students to offer little or no resistance to what I'm doing - as a means of drilling and/or teaching others who are watching (as well as the student who's on the receiving end)...

and there are times when I want them to go at me with their "best shot" so that we can all see what happens.

AND ALL POSSIBLE SHADES OF GRAY IN-BETWEEN have their place also - depending upon what the lesson plan goal is at that moment.

And here's the biggest payoff to allowing one's students to offer complete resistance on a regular basis:

YOU FIND OUT WHAT REALLY WORKS - WHAT DOESN'T - AND WHAT ADJUSTMENTS HAVE TO BE MADE.

[stricker]

lots of coaches in mma boxing muay thai even judo bjj etc wouldnt last very long if all their students went 100% with them hahaha.

allso the only way i see to get over the bad boxing bad wrestling problem is to go out and D I Y

[GungFuHillbilly]

There are times when I want my students to offer little or no resistance to what I'm doing - as a means of drilling and/or teaching others who are watching (as well as the student who's on the receiving end)...

and there are times when I want them to go at me with their "best shot" so that we can all see what happens.

AND ALL POSSIBLE SHADES OF GRAY IN-BETWEEN have their place also - depending upon what the lesson plan goal is at that moment.

Hello Victor,

Good thoughts...yes, the intent and energy of any particular lesson is going to be context specific...

My point was that IF you are going to make a vid clip about defenses against grappling are you going to choose a student that has little to no real skill? And then when you come out looking like uber gung fu man...would you really want that posted on the net as an example of what you do?

Again, I don't know the context of why this clip was shot...I just thought it was a rather stinky demonstration of grappling AND wing chun.

However, at the same time I think many of us here feel that it is a neglected subject for the majority of wing chun schools...

-GFH

[GungFuHillbilly]

lots of coaches in mma boxing muay thai even judo bjj etc wouldnt last very long if all their students went 100% with them hahaha.

allso the only way i see to get over the bad boxing bad wrestling problem is to go out and D I Y

First let me say that if you are a student and everyone time the instructor asks you to help with a demo you try and take his head off...you probably have a real ego problem and need to empty your cup.

The intent/energy you feed your instructor is going to depend on the context.

It also depends on the context of the learning (i.e., are you a pro boxer, an olympic/collegiate wrestler, a student learning self-defense, etc.) that calls for different interactions.

I'm fairly certain that Tyson in his prime was not sparring 100% against Cus...

However, if my Sifu tells me he wants to shoot a clip of defenses against certain types of attacks...I sure as hell am not going to be timid or weak just to make him look good.

Also, if my Sifu can't outmatch me then why would I be training with him?

If that were the case I'd find another coach/instructor...

Just my thoughts.

-GFH

[jmdrake]

Well I suppose I'm the lone dissenter here, but I don't think those shots were all that bad. Both times the aggressor got low and shot in deep. And the moved he tried to use to spin around the sprawl was decently executed too. The simple fact is that it's not easy to shoot against someone who has half a clue how to defend a shoot if he's expecting you to shoot on him. I sincerely don't think the aggressor represents someone with "little or no skill". He probably wasn't a purple belt but he could have easily been a blue belt. Does this one video clip mean the defender is ready for the UFC? Of course not. But he looks to be realisticly developing skills against an opponent at a similair skill level using techniques that work. That's the same thing anyone in a BJJ school would do. (Yes, sometimes white belts and blue belts go against purple belts, but most of the time they go against other white belts and blue belts). I'll admit that the standing joint locks look cheesy, but that's probably because...standing joint locks are cheesy. Anyway, I don't know if this really qualifies as an "anti grappling" link. The defender is using basic grappling to defend grappling.

The "armbar defense" was laughable though. I've never seen anyone do an armbar from the position shown. Usually one leg is over the face and all the way to the floor. Also typically the defender would need to keep his arm bent before attempting to roll out. Doing what he did is asking to get your arm broke against someone competent.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Edmund]

The shot was in on his leg which was good but he didn't do enough to finish it. 9/10 times you can't just drive to finish a single leg shot which is why I found the comments that he wasn't energetic enough amusing. A little bit of wrestling technique would have helped a lot more.

The more he drives the more the other guy can just sprawl out.

[Knifefighter]

LOL at people criticizing what was actually not a bad example of takedown defense.

While the guy shooting is not a world beater in terms of takedowns, he did most of his attack somewhat correctly. He worked a distraction set-up up top, changed levels, took a bit of a “half man” angle and got a pretty good penetration step into his opponent. He even worked to cut the corner once he had secured the leg, although the entire takedown should have been worked from a double leg. Overall, not a bad takedown attempt- lots of submission grapplers never get past this stage.

His big mistake was not going for the double in the first place and then keeping his head down and on the outside when performing a single leg. These are very common mistakes. Head placement and set-up differences between double, single, and high crotch takedowns are confusing for even intermediate level grapplers. The defender did exactly what he was supposed to do in that situation- cross face. That is a perfect example of what to do if your opponent makes the common mistake of having his head on the outside when attempting a single leg takedown.

Overall, I’m betting both of these guys have some basic freestyle/folkstyle wrestling experience (the attacker's sit out counter-attack showed that he definitely has had some wrestling training) and probably know more about takedowns and defense than most of the people criticizing the clip.