OT: Peak Oil and the Road Warrior

[Crushing Fist]

So I was watching the end of "The Road Warrior" again this weekend and got to thinking about all the "peak oil" theories and such with oil up around $75 a barrel.


Whats everyone think on this topic?


As for me, I think things are going to be getting interesting rather soon.


lets put on our tinfoil hats and have a real conspiracy theory hoedown!


I'll start...

The real reason for the war in Iraq was that Saddam had started selling oil in Euros, a big no-no. When the euro went up and he started making a killing we had to step in as a warning to other oil producing nations,"you keep using US dollars as fiat currency... or else this happens to you". We certainly didn't do anything when the horrible atrocities he committed were actually happening.

IMO this is all just a big trade war between US and EU. Remember how France and Germany were so opposed to the invasion? remmeber the oil contracts they had? UK went in with us... they don't use the euro.


ok.... FLAME ON!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

the aztec calander starts a new cycle in 2012 ... it doesnt end. it's like saying our calander ends on december 31st.

[Radhnoti]

In my opinion, and a lot of economists, whenever there's financial incentive enough people get creative. When there's BIG money to be made with a gas/oil alternative that's when it'll happen. It won't happen now, because it's individual producers and current events driving oil prices up. If anyone tried to put together a REAL nationwide gas-alternative plan right now all the oil producers would have to do is bring prices down to where they should be.

Your conspiracy theory works better for me than, "The U.S. went in to steal oil!"

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, as oil becomes more scarce then the vested interest groups will have less money to influence government with and then real progress can be made towards switching over to alternatives WHICH ARE AVAILIBLE NOW.
Then we won't be forced to tolerate the appalling human rights violations in the middle east and Russia, the huge inequalities that exist in these countries will change and the breeding conditions for terrorism will diminish.
See, we didn't need to invade Iraq to make the world safer, we just needed to go green

[David Jamieson]

Peak Oil is a theory. It's not a reality.
Abiotic oil is another theory. It completely contradicts peak oil theory but goes unheard in the west because it's a russian theory.

I don't have a lot of faith in studies that come from the industries themselves.

will it run out? likely, everything runs out when you use it up.
but will it run out before we find another energy source that isn't hydrocarbons?
Probably not.

The infrastructure and wealth of teh oil producing companies and nations exists and is being profitted from. Not many people would make a business move that diverts this profit into researching ways to put themselves out of business and to render obsolete the infrastructure they have.

such is the way of capatilism in whatever political model it oiperates under.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

isn't the problem of alternate sources of energy that when you take everything into consideration ... production, transportation, and such ... it takes just as much oil to create it as you tried to save? the entire infrastructure is based on oil and i just dont see how we could "switch" to something else any time soon.

if oil gets as scarce as some say as quickly as some say we'll be back to horse drawn buggies and steam engines if we are lucky. it could be the best or worst thing to happen to us as a whole.

personally i dont think well see any of it in our life time.

[Crushing Fist]

Yeah, as oil becomes more scarce then the vested interest groups will have less money to influence government with and then real progress can be made towards switching over to alternatives WHICH ARE AVAILIBLE NOW.

I'll bite...

what are the alternatives which are available now?

[David Jamieson]

Alternatives that are available now are indeed quite good, but again, it's about funding and so long as big oil has more money, you're not going to see anything but token gestures of greeness.

As soon as big oil can strnglehold the alternative, they'll put more money in.

Ethanol is an alternative and is a renewable resource. Just keep growingh corn and you can continue to have cheap clean burning fuel.

Hydrogen fuel technology has been available for a while, the problem has been the mass production of the cells. This has been overcome. There is a proposition on teh table inCanada to have the first piece of INfrastructure for Hytdrogen fuel celll technology in place by 2015 with a corridor of refuel stations from Windsor Ontario to Montreal along the 401 highway the busiest transporatation corridor in North America.

Wind technolgy has been around for centuries and is now at a point where it has a real viability. Look for more wind power mills in the very near future.

Hydro electric power, well, need i say more.

Solar power technology is totally viable and can contribute to the reduction of the use of hydrocarbons in teh production of consumer electricity needs.

Hydro electric wave energy collectors use the energy from tides to gather and store electricity. this technology is fairly new, but is pretty remarkable.

antimatter. hard to produce, even harder to contain safely and so far, in teh process of moving from theory into reality as particles are smashed into each other to and fro to figure out the baby steps of how to make this a reality.

Cold fusion- still not available, but apparently this is a theoretical possibility that has made great stride since the 70's.

Nuclear energy- despite all the alarmism and negative image, this is a real solution. Probably the best choice for combination with current hydroelectric plants and a good alternative to getting rid of all teh coal and oil burning plants that make up some 75% of the electricity generated in North America.

Hemp Oil and Fuel- yes, the potheads love the sound of this one lol, but in all seriousness this is another highly diverse use of that simple plant that has been demonized because people prefer to smoke it.

Natural Gas- pretty abundant, not used to full potential.

Organic fuels are completely viable. It has been shown time and again that organic fuels can run combustion engines dsuch as a diesel with only a small modification to the fuel systems.

The problem with organic fuels is the amount of space required to grow the matter that the fuel is produced from. If super oily organics can be grown in smaller areas, it will become a reality and is already in the process of doing so.

electro magnetics is still being played with for all sort of things but the energy return in output vs input is pretty amazing.

The steps won't be taken until profit and greed are taken out of the equation.

those listed above are only a short sampling of alternative energies that in many cases are less harmful to us and our environment. with a little digging one can be amazed at what's out there and available right now but goes undeveloped because of no commitment to their production.

[David Jamieson]

FWIW-

It is corporations and big business that use most of the energy. So calls to turn off air conditioners at home in teh summer are just a tad bit silly.

Look at your skylines at night. You see all those building s all lit up and nobody in em? That's waste, pure and simple waste.

Inefficient systems in production lines at manufacturing plants, waste waste waste.

people in their homes are more concious of energy conservation than big business is. That's the general problem. If businesses made it part of their mission to conserve, they save themselves money, they save the environemnet the extra grief it has to bear at their expense and it will pervade further into our own conciousness.

[Crushing Fist]

Ethanol is an alternative and is a renewable resource. Just keep growingh corn and you can continue to have cheap clean burning fuel.

how much corn would we need to grow in order to replace the 80 million barrels of oil consumed in the world every day? I read somewhere that 95% or more of all land mass would have to used to grow corn for this to be possible.

seems a little far-fetched to me.

Hydrogen fuel technology has been available for a while, the problem has been the mass production of the cells. This has been overcome. There is a proposition on teh table inCanada to have the first piece of INfrastructure for Hytdrogen fuel celll technology in place by 2015 with a corridor of refuel stations from Windsor Ontario to Montreal along the 401 highway the busiest transporatation corridor in North America.

unfortunately hydrogen fuel cells are an energy carrier, not an energy source

currently most hydrogen is made from natural gas. it could be made from water with eletricity, but there is not currently any system to do this on a massive industrial scale, and where do we get the eletricity to do it? lets keep reading...

Wind technolgy has been around for centuries and is now at a point where it has a real viability. Look for more wind power mills in the very near future.

windmills are nifty, but I don't see them powering the current global economy...

how many Kilowatt hours does a typical windmill produce?

Hydro electric power, well, need i say more.

not bad but still in the same category as windmills... just a drop in the bucket compared to the energy currently being consumed.

Solar power technology is totally viable and can contribute to the reduction of the use of hydrocarbons in teh production of consumer electricity needs.

another nice idea, just very energy intensive to produce...

perhaps solar farms in space could work, if we have time and resources to develop them

Hydro electric wave energy collectors use the energy from tides to gather and store electricity. this technology is fairly new, but is pretty remarkable.

I like this one, it something I've always wondered about.

but again it won't sustain the current industrial economy.

antimatter. hard to produce, even harder to contain safely and so far, in teh process of moving from theory into reality as particles are smashed into each other to and fro to figure out the baby steps of how to make this a reality.

someone has been watching to much star trek again...

know how much antimatter we have created and stored so far?

anyway we're talking about currently available alternatives to fossils

Cold fusion- still not available, but apparently this is a theoretical possibility that has made great stride since the 70's.

now we're talking! this is the tinfoil hat stuff I've been waiting for!

Nuclear energy- despite all the alarmism and negative image, this is a real solution. Probably the best choice for combination with current hydroelectric plants and a good alternative to getting rid of all teh coal and oil burning plants that make up some 75% of the electricity generated in North America.

same problem as fossils, only more acute. Limited fuel supply

never mind the chernobyls

Hemp Oil and Fuel- yes, the potheads love the sound of this one lol, but in all seriousness this is another highly diverse use of that simple plant that has been demonized because people prefer to smoke it.

I love it! Jello Biafra did a great spoken word on this one!

unfortunately same problem as the corn solution (see above)

Natural Gas- pretty abundant, not used to full potential.

not as good as oil, and destined to run out not long after... next

Organic fuels are completely viable. It has been shown time and again that organic fuels can run combustion engines dsuch as a diesel with only a small modification to the fuel systems.

one more time... its a matter of production. we already can't feed everyone, now we're going to use food sources to fuel cars?

The problem with organic fuels is the amount of space required to grow the matter that the fuel is produced from. If super oily organics can be grown in smaller areas, it will become a reality and is already in the process of doing so.

I see your point... producing enough is not currently realistic

electro magnetics is still being played with for all sort of things but the energy return in output vs input is pretty amazing.

the "electro" part has to come from somewhere...

The steps won't be taken until profit and greed are taken out of the equation.

so the steps won't be taken until humans no longer exist? again I see your point.

but seriously, if the steps aren't taken until oil is no longer profitable, then what will we use to change our massive infrastructure over to the "new way"?

those listed above are only a short sampling of alternative energies that in many cases are less harmful to us and our environment. with a little digging one can be amazed at what's out there and available right now but goes undeveloped because of no commitment to their production.

I for one, am not amazed...

one small detail

oil is used for more than energy

its used to grow our food in modern industrial farming... bit of a catch 22 on the organic fuels bit eh?

check this out...

[Crushing Fist]

Because petrochemicals are key components to much more than just the gas in your car. As geologist Dale Allen Pfeiffer points out in his article entitled, "Eating Fossil Fuels," approximately 10 calories of fossil fuels are required to produce every 1 calorie of food eaten in the US.



The size of this ratio stems from the fact that every step of modern food production is fossil fuel and petrochemical powered:



1. Pesticides are made from oil;



2. Commercial fertilizers are made from ammonia, which is

made from natural gas, which will peak about 10 years

after oil peaks;



3. With the exception of a few experimental prototypes, all

farming implements such as tractors and trailers are

constructed and powered using oil;



4. Food storage systems such as refrigerators are

manufactured in oil-powered plants, distributed across

oil-powered transportation networks and usually run on

electricity, which most often comes from natural gas or

coal;



5. In the US, the average piece of food is transported

almost 1,500 miles before it gets to your plate. In

Canada, the average piece of food is transported 5,000

miles from where it is produced to where it is consumed.



In short, people gobble oil like two-legged SUVs.



It's not just transportation and agriculture that are entirely dependent on abundant, cheap oil. Modern medicine, water distribution, and national defense are each entirely powered by oil and petroleum derived chemicals.



In addition to transportation, food, water, and modern medicine, mass quantities of oil are required for all plastics, all computers and all high-tech devices.



Some specific examples may help illustrate the degree to which our technological base is dependent on fossil fuels:



1. The construction of an average car consumes the energy

equivalent of approximately 20 barrels of oil , which

equates to 840 gallons, of oil. Ultimately, the

construction of a car will consume an amount of fossil

fuels equivalent to twice the car’s final weight.



2. The production of one gram of microchips consumes 630

grams of fossil fuels. According to the American Chemical

Society, the construction of single 32 megabyte DRAM

chip requires 3.5 pounds of fossil fuels in addition to 70.5

pounds of water.



3. The construction of the average desktop computer

consumes ten times its weight in fossil fuels.



4. The Environmental Literacy Council tells us that due to

the "purity and sophistication of materials (needed for) a

microchip, . . . the energy used in producing nine or ten

computers is enough to produce an automobile."



When considering the role of oil in the production of modern technology, remember that most alternative systems of energy — including solar panels/solar-nanotechnology, windmills, hydrogen fuel cells, biodiesel production facilities, nuclear power plants, etc. — rely on sophisticated technology.

you see the biggest problem coming out of an oil shortage would not be "where do we get our energy?" its "how do we feed ourselves?"


there is an answer





that answer is not utopian smiles and bunnies


the current amount of consumption will go down...

the current lifestyle of industrialized nations will change.

and the population...



who really thinks the population can be sustained at current levels or increase?


and why do you think so?


because it makes you feel good or do you have something concrete?



the Amazing Kreskin predicts.....




Massive Famine!





enjoy

[Crushing Fist]

anymore ideas on what "Realistic and Currently Available Alternatives" will be able to replace the (approximately) 3.5 billion gallons of oil consumed in the world every day?



how much pot would we have to grow to get 3.5 billion gallons of hemp oil?


can we grow that much every day?






but really, I like the optimism... its cute

[5Animals1Path]

Here's hoping for a Zombie outbreak. Put a little bit of perspective on everything.






Plus, I'll hoard gas so I can put my supersoaker flamethrower project to the front of the line.

[Crushing Fist]

Now we're getting somewhere!



Zombies! That's what I'm talkin' about...


who hasn't ever secretly wished for a zombie outbreak?






be honest now...


I mean, thats the only reason I train in Martial Arts

to be ready for the Road Warrior Zombie outbreak


[zombie groan] braaiiiiins..... fuuueeeel... braaaiiiiinnssss...[/zombie groan]


I'll have to quote Humongous on this one:

Walk away...



Just walk away

[Crushing Fist]

Remember one thing: That is more than just a tanker of gas.
That is our lifeline to a place beyond that vermin on machines.

















But the first step:
Defend the fuel.