Royal Bodyguard Kung Fu, Tai Chi.

[kung fu goat]

I dont care about your opinion of the arts origin. What Grandmaster inheritor gave you information on the arts origins? What lineage did they go through?

You still did not answer my question of who taught you Tai Chi and who gave you the right to say the information Sifu Kash teaches is false?

Just questioning your credibilty. Seems you should have some credibility and other backing, besides your opinion of cheap tai chi videos, to make such claims.

I just want to learn the real art and want good proof of why I am not learning the real thing.

[SifuAbel]

Do a little research. The difference between you and RD is simple. He doesn't swallow everything that is told to him. He actually goes out and does some searching to see whats what. Have you? Do you know anything beyond what your school tells you? I doubt it.

Bottom line, you are protecting your investment, not searching for any truth.

[Royal Dragon]

I realy don't need any authority. All need is to SEE the forms, and compare them to everything else. Anyone that does, sees that the TAI CHI form you do, in any way, shape or form, is not TAI TZU.

it's simple, all the evidnece you need is for sale comercially. You don't need Lineage, "authority" or anything related to the "control freakie power trip" you guys are on, to see the truth. Just comapre the forms side by side.

when you start looking, and comparing, it's easy to see where the problems are.

[kung fu goat]

So let me get something straight. You dont know any history or lineage behind any of the styles of tai chi. You dont know where they came from or what time period. All you do is compare the first style you saw to the style that we do and assume ours came from that.

Yea thats good enough for me. I just want to hear you say one more time that my teacher, his students, our school, our style, high officials within the chinese martial arts community that have given merit to my teacher; and, the Grandmasters that apointed and certified him are all frauds.

But, you still have your books and videos, written and recorded by people you have never even met, to base your claims on.

[Royal Dragon]

Zhao Bao Taiji is considred the oldest, and was developed during the Ming dynasty. It gave way to Chen style, but there was much exchangeing between the two, and they both claim to be the original (probably they develolped at the same time in parallel). This was about the Ming dynasty. From there, Yang developed and Sun, Wu Hou sprung forth from Yang. Chen Man Ching's set is a MODERN Yang set. Chao syle is pretty similar. That flavor of Tai Chi has only been around about 150 years, not 1000+ as your group claims

The Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan influanced Chen Taiji, as did Hong Chuan and Shaolin Cannon Fist. You can see shadows of it in thier forms, especially when you know the actual Shaolin Tai tzu set (I know several versions). However, when you compare them side by side, you can see they are not the same forms, and each has thier own flavor...totally thier own flavor.

The Chao family set has the flavor of Yang style Taiji, the most reacent in the historical evolution. The form may actually be Lee style Taiji though (Chao, Yuh Feng was a Lee style internal artists...you may not know that), but I have never seen that.

Still, it has the modern flavor. The really Old Taiji's are very different in expression, and even those are not like Tai tzu in a major way (again, you do see the evolutionary influance).

I think if you want to best discredit me, then you should go to Empty Flower's forum, and post your beife's on Chao Taiji Quan, and the history of Taiji Quan. Be ready to do, as I did, and send video of the Chao Taiji 36/37 (whatever you call it now) form to anyone who asks to see it, and see what thier honest opinion of the form is. Ask from a historical perspecive, and where it fits into the evolution of martial arts.

Once you do this, and you see the perspecives of many SENIOR internal artists, and historical experts, AND you buy all the various VCD's avaliable today, and compare them, you will begin to see that set is *Very* modern (I'm saying 50 years old at best), and thearfore cannot be a 1000 year old "Original" Tai Chi set, NOR can it be Tai Tzu Chang Chuan by the very merit of the fact that it is clearly a modern Yang form and not a 1000+ year old Long fist form.

Stop spouting credentials, and do some real digging with recognized experts. Kash is a recognised baffon, and fraud. You need to find the real deal and ask a variety of experts. Compare what they all tell you. The answeres are in the form itself, not the cert's and pictures Kash likes to parade around.

[Royal Dragon]

One more thing, did you know the Chao family Taiji has TWO long forms? The 36/37 is the short form....the long form is more like 64....



For those of you that don't know the system;

Chao taiji has two 8 gates forms, the first is really a primer for the first 64 move form (Which is just 8 postures done in 8 directions), and the second 8 gates is the one actually known as known as the 64. It is the same as the first, with some added footwork and such. I personally consider them the same set. The 8 gates is the beginners progression to the 64.

Did you know the 64 was made up by Chao Yuh Feng himself? (for those who don't know, it is just the 8 basic postures done in the 8 gates with some minor additional footwork).

The next is the 37 move form (Kash renamed it the 36 some years ago). That is the one that shares the first 9 moves with Chen Man Ching's set. The final is the long form (also 64 moves if I counted right). When you look at it, it is clear that the 37 is a "Shortened" version of the long form. I bet you guys don't even know the long form do you!! Ha ha!



Also, while you are digging, try and find out why David Natoli changed his name to David Ka$h?


Chao Taiji curriculem

1. Basic 8 Postures set
2. 4 Gates (8 postures done in 4 gates)
3. 8 Gates (again, same 8 postures done in 8 gates)
4. 64 move form (*Again*, SAME 8 postures done in the 8 gates, only now with some additional footwork)

5. 37 move form (Same first 8-9 moves are identical with Chen Man Ching's form)
6. 64 move form. (Apears to be the main form, I suspect the 37 is a "Shortened" version of this one, Kash does not know it)

7. lastly there are various push hands exercises that are similar to all modern Taiji systems.



1st NOTE* the 37 is performed not only in a slow soft style, but also a more agressive style with a feel more like Chen's Cannon Fist. I haven't seen this in the long form, but I assume it is there too.

2nd NOTE* the 8 Gates is basically grasp the sparrow's tail from Yang Taiji, with the motions of Pull down, Spliting, Elbow, and Soulders/Hips tacked on to the end of it.

[Brad]

Zhao Bao Taiji is considred the oldest, and was developed during the Ming dynasty. It gave way to Chen style, but there was much exchangeing between the two, and they both claim to be the original (probably they develolped at the same time in parallel). This was about the Ming dynasty. From there, Yang developed and Sun, Wu Hou sprung forth from Yang. Chen Man Ching's set is a MODERN Yang set. Chao syle is pretty similar. That flavor of Tai Chi has only been around about 150 years, not 1000+ as your group claims

Zhao Bao's status is debatable (most will go with Chen being oldest). I don't know much about Zhao Bao though there's obviously a connection at some point. Yang came from Chen. Wu developed from old Yang style... Wu(Hao) developed from old Yang and also went back to Chen villiage for further instruction. Sun developed from Wu(Hao) style with added xingyi and bagua influence. CMC was a student of Yang Cheng Fu and developed his own unique take on Yang Cheng Fu's taiji, created the 37 move short form. Anyway, you had the basic idea right, with Chen being oldest and CMC being newest (and both being easilly visually identifiable from other styles).

I'd like to see what Chao's taiji looks like, anyway someone can post a video?

[Royal Dragon]

Smewhere, I may have an old video of myself learning it, if you want to PM an address, I will mail you a tape.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, Zhao Bao is debatable, but I have seen the charts, and they show Chen guys learning from them very early on.

My personal belife, is that Zhao Bao was first, ad Chen seond, BUT there was a lot of cross pollination as well, so from my point of view, it was a parallel evolution around the same time.

The reality may be that both styles stemmed from Tai Tzu, or an earlier taoist practice.

I have a freind who does Zhao Bao, and i do see Tai Tzu moves in the form, different expression, but it is in there.

[Oso]

1st NOTE* the 37 is performed not only in a slow soft style, but also a more agressive style with a feel more like Chen's Cannon Fist. I haven't seen this in the long form, but I assume it is there too.

It is...or was. I learned the 64 with the foot changes (5 I think) in a seminar Sifu Kash gave in Boone not long before quitting the 'ELF' class (spring '98 I think) to focus on my Sil Lum. I had learned the 36/37 slow, then quickly moved to doing it the more aggresive way as I liked it better that way. It was said that the 36/37 and the 64 could be played slow or fast and with other flavors (interjection of Xing Yi elements and the Bagua Animals)

2nd NOTE* the 8 Gates is basically grasp the sparrow's tail from Yang Taiji, with the motions of Pull down, Spliting, Elbow, and Soulders/Hips tacked on to the end of it.

I think the '8 Gates' as you are referring to them were referred to as the '8 original moves' and are the subject of an IKF article in '86 before CYF died.

They are the only thing I teach as 'tai chi' and simply refer to it as a short intro to the Chao Tai Chi set.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol its funny how all these cults of personality have a hive mind mentality. ironic.

[Scott R. Brown]

Since when was the first version of "ANYTHING" considered a quality product in comparison to later "IMPROVED" versions. Certainly quality may easily deteriorate over time as well as improve, but to consider something superior because it is the oldest or first version is not very wise.

Hey guys!! For $15,000 I will teach you how to use Windows 3.0. After 3 years of training I promise to give you a certificate of mastery, regardless of your competency. Plus, I will throw in a neat company T-shirt and hat?
_____

Just because something MAY have been officially sanctioned by a particular government (read: bureaucracy) doesn't automatically bestow superior quality to the product. Governments, as a matter of course, are steeped in corruption and nepotism. It would be equally unwise to assume something is superior merely because it is governmentally sanctioned; especially if it costs 10 times the going rate and a certificate is guaranteed regardless of your competency!

A promise of certification is not a promise of competency!!

[Kymus]

Since when was the first version of "ANYTHING" considered a quality product in comparison to later "IMPROVED" versions. Certainly quality may easily deteriorate over time as well as improve, but to consider something superior because it is the oldest or first version is not very wise.

Hey guys!! For $15,000 I will teach you how to use Windows 3.0. After 3 years of training I promise to give you a certificate of mastery, regardless of your competency. Plus, I will throw in a neat company T-shirt and hat?

Throw in the tao of right-click and you got a deal. T-Shirt size medium :P

[kung fu goat]

Who did you learn "Chao family Tai chi" from?

No don't tell me, I already know you don't know anything about the art. I know you are fake. I assume you are saying the long list of credentials and hand wriiten genalogies are not real, even though I have seen them. Signed and sealed by a real member of the Chao family. Not by a fake inheritor like Livingston, who was never #2 man in CFCWA. He never met master Chao. Sifu was the one who gave him the membership and it was not for number 2 man. I know my teacher sent you the Emperor's Long Fist book and that is where you get most of your information. I know for a fact my teacher can back up everything he says in a court of law. Can you?

I understand your anger, my teacher exposed you about five years ago for what you really are. Every real person in the Chinese martial arts community knows that you are. So you have to turn it back on my teacher. Sad, you dont get a yellow belt and open a home page and act like you are hot ****.

You keep comparing you videos and keep making your conclusions. Make sure you keep spouting your lies.

I know you have said that master Chao was a fake.

As for the course I displayed, how can anybody criticize this? You don't even know what this is about. I know no one here could handle one blow from this style. This is the highest level of Kung fu under natural fist. No fakes here know the worth of this course.

[SifuAbel]

Here we go 'round the mulberry bush............."

Court of law , ey? That would be a good one. Lets see kash stand up to the Chin woo whom don't recognize him, The 5 family inheritors that don't recognize him, the TTZCC people WORLDWIDE that don't recognize him. Am I missing some other "inheritance"?

I could hand write you a geneology that would make me the king of france and pencil you in as my heir. It don't mean squat. To say master chao was from an unbroken 1000 years old family line is impossible.

Have you even met chao or his teachers or his teachers teacher? I know I have in my styles.

How many times do people have to remind you that RD has NEVER said he is rank holding Tai tzu player? Which is, of course, the only spine to that logic. So to repeat it endlessly is foolish.

Bottom line. We have actual logic and har4d evidence backing what we say. You just have your teachers word.