Lots of Martial Arts Schools Are Closing?

[Oso]

schools are having a hard time here as well.

Just had lunch w/ my jujitsu teacher and found out his enrollment was down as well as mine.

I've only had one student quit that cited economics though. She was driving 25 miles one way and is a small business owner selling a luxury product so her busines has been slacking off as well.

Everyone else either 'got busy' or lazy.

A TKD school nearby has closed.

There is one little thing happening though: a TKD guy, ATA I think, has opened several tiny little schools around town...3 or 4 I think. Word is he's not making a lot of money because he doesn't have a bunch of students at any school but is just carving up the pie into smaller bites for everyone. On the other hand, he's bracketing the city. This town sucks azz to cross between 3 and 7 for such a relatively small place. I have had people tell me they didn't want to come to a class on the other side of town.

I've been debating closing down and trying to get back into a rec center. I've been in the black exactly one month out of 18...

[neilhytholt]

Everyone else either 'got busy' or lazy.

Something strange is going on besides just the health craze and all that. It really seems like we're in a mini-recession or something even though most people out there seem to have jobs. I've noticed that there's a lot less stuff going on in general. (Stuff meaning everything from horseback riding to movie going to church to martial arts).

I can't really figure out why, though. People at work are now taking a lot of vacation now, and they just seem to be relaxing, taking time off, doing some walking around, work on the house, or watching T.V. !!!

Even the video stores are in a lackluster state. They said their sales are down due to video on demand and stuff like that.

Do you think the real cause might be TIVO, movies on demand, and stuff like that? Because it really seems like most people are just sitting at home watching T.V.!

BTW that part of NC seems really nice.

[Chief Fox]

For everybody that's ribbing me about the forms thing, please understand that for people with 20+ years experience in martial arts, learning new forms is kindof a waste of time...

Where just busting on you man. Besides you're the one who said that you didn't want to learn a bunch of useless forms. Having as much experience as you say you have, you should know that the back bone of any Chinese Martial art or style is it's forms.

[neilhytholt]

Where just busting on you man. Besides you're the one who said that you didn't want to learn a bunch of useless forms. Having as much experience as you say you have, you should know that the back bone of any Chinese Martial art or style is it's forms.

Well, I have to say that I don't really agree with that. The way that a lot of Chinese martial arts are taught are starting with forms and then going to techniques. But it seems fairly obvious, doesn't it, that the people who invented the forms started with technique and then went to forms?

[neilhytholt]

Okay, so I raised this topic at lunchtime with my co-workers about what they're doing with their time, and here were the comments from people.

General consensus is that they're not doing very many activities and things as they once did.

Common themes:

a) Too much traffic, high property taxes, getting old (health problems), taking care of kids. Their kids are all in activities like sports, martial arts, etc.
b) Several people said they have signed up for video subscription services (video.google.com, for example), so they spend a lot of time watching that.
c) A lot of shows on television (Desperate Housewives, The Shield, etc, etc. etc.).
d) Spare time with home maintenance, fixing up the house, etc.

Basically they don't have a lot of free time or money and what free time they do have seems to be spent watching their new big-screen TVs.

[Chief Fox]

Well, I have to say that I don't really agree with that. The way that a lot of Chinese martial arts are taught are starting with forms and then going to techniques. But it seems fairly obvious, doesn't it, that the people who invented the forms started with technique and then went to forms?

Yes it does. How would you say that any particular style of martial art was able to survive for hundreds of years? Do you think a style or martial art survives on individual techniques or is it through the individual interpretation of those techniques through forms?

What I'm getting at is, you and I can interpret different applications from the same techniques in a form.

If you teach me one application, all I have is that one application. If you teach me a form, I can extract many many different applications.

A punch is a punch but a form defines a style. Saying a form is useless is just like throwing away hundreds of years of combat tested information.

I don't know about you but I would rather learn from history rather than say it is useless and just throw it away. To each his own, I guess.

[Chief Fox]

Okay, so I raised this topic at lunchtime with my co-workers about what they're doing with their time, and here were the comments from people.

General consensus is that they're not doing very many activities and things as they once did.

Common themes:

a) Too much traffic, high property taxes, getting old (health problems), taking care of kids. Their kids are all in activities like sports, martial arts, etc.
b) Several people said they have signed up for video subscription services (video.google.com, for example), so they spend a lot of time watching that.
c) A lot of shows on television (Desperate Housewives, The Shield, etc, etc. etc.).
d) Spare time with home maintenance, fixing up the house, etc.

Basically they don't have a lot of free time or money and what free time they do have seems to be spent watching their new big-screen TVs.

Sad but true.

[neilhytholt]

Yes it does. How would you say that any particular style of martial art was able to survive for hundreds of years? Do you think a style or martial art survives on individual techniques or is it through the individual interpretation of those techniques through forms?

What I'm getting at is, you and I can interpret different applications from the same techniques in a form.

If you teach me one application, all I have is that one application. If you teach me a form, I can extract many many different applications.

A punch is a punch but a form defines a style. Saying a form is useless is just like throwing away hundreds of years of combat tested information.

I don't know about you but I would rather learn from history rather than say it is useless and just throw it away. To each his own, I guess.

Some martial arts forms seem to be condensed, such as Xingyi or taiji, but some martial arts forms are not condensed like some forms of Fut Sao, etc.. The main reason I'm against forms is because many teachers these days do not know many or teach many applications of the forms. I personally don't want to waste my time learning a lot of forms and getting corrected only to find out the teacher doesn't know the applications. I disagree with you in 'finding applications' of the forms. This just seems to mean people make up weird stuff that doesn't work.

IMHO (and I have a large library of VCDs from China to support this that I went through this weekend and am throwing away), most of the martial arts from China the applications were lost and now people are making up stupid stuff.

But that's just one person's opinion, in case Judge Pen is reading this. LOL

[Chief Fox]

Well I didn't say "finding applications". I said "extract" and "interpret". You may do a technique a certain way because it works with your style and body type. I may do the same technique a different way because it works better with my style and body type. Same technique with two different interpretations.

But who am I to argue with you and your 20 years plus of studying your large VCD collection.

Good luck finding a new school.

[neilhytholt]

Well I didn't say "finding applications". I said "extract" and "interpret". You may do a technique a certain way because it works with your style and body type. I may do the same technique a different way because it works better with my style and body type. Same technique with two different interpretations.

But who am I to argue with you and your 20 years plus of studying your large VCD collection.

Good luck finding a new school.

I'm not looking for a new school. LOL I found a couple of leads on places to train, but they're not schools.

No, I bought those VCDs from China to check on how the martial arts coming out of China are now, if they're mostly wushu or what, if there's any use going to China to train. Turns out it's mostly really weird stuff. I don't think it's worthwhile going to china.

If I want to learn a ton of Chinese forms with dubious lineage taught in an acrobatic manner, I don't have to go to the Shaolin temple, all I have to do is go to Shaolin-Do.

[brucereiter]

For everybody that's ribbing me about the forms thing, please understand that for people with 20+ years experience in martial arts, learning new forms is kindof a waste of time. For one thing, if you study the applications, they overlap between the martial arts.

Plus, who has the time to learn a bunch of new forms and practice them in addition to whatever forms you already practice? I sure don't. Add to that the fact that every new school requires you to do the forms their way. Yang Tai Chi, for example, there are so many different variations.

So I think that a school where you can train in a fairly realistic manner (sparring) that doesn't require you to learn their forms or a lot of new techniques is probably optimal. Hence something like Ring Sports United with a MMA focus.

As for what Gene said about the health thing, I think that's right on. Most of the people I've met recently in schools seem to be there to get healthy and lose weight. The martial arts was just a side thing that is less boring for them apparently than going to the gym and working out. Plus, you don't really want kids doing weights and treadmills.

For example, the local TKD schools are loaded with kids and fat teens. TKD seems to be primarily a way for parents to stick their kids in something to help them stay in shape and lose weight, and the tournament and belt aspect keeps them interested. (Oh, and not to mention the time the kids spend in TKD is like a babysitter).

Adult Tai Chi (non fighting and non contact) seems to be popular with everybody in the 35+ age range.

Plus, there is the liability thing. You teach people martial arts like they used to, and you get hurts, ouchies, sprains, broken bones, etc., and that's a big liability. MA insurance is like the 1-2 million range, so if somebody sues you for over $2 million (if they break their neck in a throw you're probably looking like $10 million+). This is the reason I personally don't open a school. Otherwise, I'd open a school tomorrow.

hi neil,

i understand it can be frusterating going to a new school and "relearning" ma. even within a single system teachers perform their arts a bit different.

have you thought about opening your own school? i think you said you have 20+ years of practice. if you have your own school you can do and teach what ever you want.

[neilhytholt]

hi neil,

i understand it can be frusterating going to a new school and "relearning" ma. even within a single system teachers perform their arts a bit different.

have you thought about opening your own school? i think you said you have 20+ years of practice. if you have your own school you can do and teach what ever you want.

Seriously, I have considered it many times. But there are a few problems with that, financial, liability and political. I don't want to teach kids and around here there isn't a market for non-MMA non health oriented schools that I can tell. Plus, I can't find a MA liability policy over 2 million, so if somebody gets hurt and sues me for more than that, I'm kindof screwed.

The political problem is the only style I have a senior rank in is basically closed-door and I can't really teach it out without seriously making my teacher mad. I thought I would teach once my teacher retires in a few years, but he told me he's planning on teaching for another 10 years until he's well into his '70s! (ouch!) Maybe he will change his mind. But if he even knew I was talking on forums, he'd be extremely upset.

[brucereiter]

Seriously, I have considered it many times. But there are a few problems with that, financial, liability and political. I don't want to teach kids and around here there isn't a market for non-MMA non health oriented schools that I can tell. Plus, I can't find a MA liability policy over 2 million, so if somebody gets hurt and sues me for more than that, I'm kindof screwed.

The political problem is the only style I have a senior rank in is basically closed-door and I can't really teach it out without seriously making my teacher mad. I thought I would teach once my teacher retires in a few years, but he told me he's planning on teaching for another 10 years until he's well into his '70s! (ouch!) Maybe he will change his mind. But if he even knew I was talking on forums, he'd be extremely upset.

i am sure there are many ways to protect yourself from being sued. do more research.

why wont your teacher give you permission to teach? would you be in compitition with him for students?

since you do not want forms it seems, if you were upfront with your students would you need to teach you teachers system?

[neilhytholt]

i am sure there are many ways to protect yourself from being sued. do more research.

why wont your teacher give you permission to teach? would you be in compitition with him for students?

since you do not want forms it seems, if you were upfront with your students would you need to teach you teachers system?

I better not say anymore since it's a highly political situation.

Suffice it to say that there's no money in this anyway, so it's pointless to try and teach other styles I don't want to practice. I don't think I could convince people to study with a non-ranked (or medium-ranked) person in other styles anyway.

[mantis108]

Suffice it to say that there's no money in this anyway, so it's pointless to try and teach other styles I don't want to practice. I don't think I could convince people to study with a non-ranked (or medium-ranked) person in other styles anyway.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to convince people to study with you whether you are ranked or not. Traditional Kung Fu has no ranks. I have no rank but I have black belts (some from another town) from other arts that come to me. The key is that you need to be exceptionally good at what you are doing (not saying that I am exceptionally good) or that you have a vision and organized materials for the potential student to achieve the goal and their best. The truth is when you have good stuff, people will come to you even if it's by word of mouth (the best advertising there is).

So worry about polishing and perfecting your program rather than worrying about people are going to come or not.

Mantis108