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Thread: Practical weapons

  1. #1
    les paul Guest

    Practical weapons

    In my opinion it seems more realistic to train with a weapon you might be forced to use one day. Almost all styles have some "practical weapons" that are of a real value in mastering in todays society. By this I do not mean the sword or any type or polearm. There isn't one place in the "developed world" where you can carry one of these items in public.

    Better in my opinion would be a staff of some type. Simply, you train differently with a stick than with a sword. Saying to yourself, "I train with the sword, therefore if I have to I can apply my skills with a stick if pressed" is true to a degree, but then why not train with a stick?

    There is also a host of "other" weapons that are just as practical in our society. Weapons like knives, chain whips, clubs(hard whips), throwing knives/stars, ropes etc.. You can actually carry these in public un-noticed and your prepared.

    Why spend your life mastering a weapon just for cultural exploration/enlightenment(nothing wrong with this if you have another more practical weapon you train in also) ****JUST MY OPINION****

    Also, you ever notice that you can train in a sword, polarm etc...for so called martial art reasons (tournaments etc...) and not many people look at you funny, but when you start training in practical weapons for actual reality based reasons and start carring these weapons for defense, even some martial artist look at you funny. It's like your getting to serious for them.


    Hopefully this will start a cool thread

  2. #2
    count Guest

    dont call you spanky

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why spend your life mastering a weapon just for cultural exploration/enlightenment[/quote]
    None of these are the reasons you learn the weapons in traditional Chinese martial arts. Anything can be a weapon. It doesn't take much training to pull a trigger or stick someone with a blade. I don't think you are understanding why you train weapons in CMA. You get certain benefits from spear/longpole and quite different benefits from sword or saber. It's more about the way your body moves with the weapon than how to stick/whack/slice/shave/skewer another person. One thing I will say though and that is if you want to carry a weapon with the intention of ever using it, train your ass off and learn how, whatever it is.

  3. #3
    Budokan Guest

    Sorry, but I can't resist

    Hey, Spanky!

    Spanky, Spanky, Spanky...Spanky, Spanky, Spank-ee! Spank, Spank, Spank, Spankity-Spanky!

    Spanky Spank.

    You're right, this is a cool thread, Spanky.

    Thanks, Spanky.

    Spanky, I owe you one. By the way, Spanky, where's Froggy?

    K. Mark Hoover

  4. #4
    whitelion Guest
    I agree with count. You get a lot more out of learning a weapon than simply how to use it. You learn different movement patterns and different hand positions depending on the weapon. Then, see if there are any applications you can learn from it without the weapon (as in open hand techniques).

    I don't know about other styles, but I have found that often the techniques you learn for one weapon are very interchangeable with other weapons. As my name suggests, I like the broad sword. When I learned the stick, I noticed that the techniques were essentially the same, only slight differences were present based on the fact that the sword in a bladed weapon. The hand positioning and use of the weapons were almost identical. Same deal with the pole and the spear. It is probably the same with many other weapons.

    And who knows, one day you may find yourself in a sword fight ;)

    ------------------------------------
    Talk softly and carry a big stick.

  5. #5
    Braden Guest
    Spankster - In bagua, alot of what you think of as "traditional weapons" are used for conditioning purposes (ie. power generation training), and have ALWAYS been used for this. People seem to think that in the "olden days" everyone carried a sword or a polearm with them wherever they went, but this simply wasn't the case. There has always been a demand for street-oriented weapons training. In bagua, this is satisfied with training in such things as special iron knuckles, emei piercers/judges pens, the crescent blades you may have seen in crouching tiger hidden dragon, and pairs of single and double edged knives.

  6. #6
    les paul Guest

    Pratical weapons

    Bradon:
    Your post is what I was talking about. Count and Broad sword, I know what your talking about and I understand the ramifications of training with weapons, but I disagree hole heartly. I've trained with double braod sword and Kwan Dao for 15 yrs. I even fight in the SCA and can trade blows with knights.( "hell" I was squired to one of the best i.e. Midrealm, Ironwolf, Ozric... nuff said.....) Most of the people in Martial Arts are not really training with their respected wepons, but only posing, untill you go full contact you don't really understand the weapon or the science behind it. As to strength training yea a weapon will help, but most don't sparr(prearanged two man forms don't count) So, what are you really getting from it besides strength conditioning? Why not at least practice with a weapon you can actually use. Just my two bits worth.

  7. #7
    count Guest

    No Spanky

    I think you are missing the point. Strength, yes, but even that is not what is all about. When we train long pole we do go full power. We put on the Kendo gear and hit full out. We train with Iron wood and we are developing the kind of power that will send someone flying. But even that is not what I am talking about. Your body becomes coordinated in a different way with the pole in your hand. You are training techniques which are mostly off the backhand as opposed to sword techniques which come of the front hand. You are using a different philosophy of attack and defense. It is about the system not the weapon. I think you are gereralizing when you say
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most of the people in Martial Arts are not really training with their respected wepons, but on ly posing, untill you go full contact you don't really understand the weapon or the science behind it. As to strength training yea a weapon will help, but most don't sparr(prearanged two man forms don't count)[/quote]
    I haven't seen MOST but I do recogniz e when people are not getting correct training and only posing. You may disagree with me and that is fine, everyone studies martial arts for their own reasons. But the benefits of training with traditional weapons are you do not compleatly understand a ny one system without it. You can train your entire life and still not really get it. What you choose to take from your system and apply to Real Life is up to you.
    :cool:


    &

    [This message was edited by count on 04-07-01 at 05:45 PM.]

  8. #8
    Braden Guest
    Spankorama - I think what count's saying is that when we say "strength training" or "conditioning" we don't mean it really in the western sense. That is, it's not like we're simply doing forms with greater resistance to work out our muscles. The movements of traditional weapon forms are designed to train specific ways of generating power that would be difficult to train with other methods. The benefits translate directly to practical, empty-hand combat. For example, the big broadsword in bagua is famous for teaching the coordination of the waist and wrist to generate spiralling energy. Baji has the lance. Some taiji schools have staff forms - etc.

  9. #9
    PlasticSquirrel Guest

    no.

    there is no way anyone can convince me that most of the people who practice traditional gung fu are posing with their weapons. wushu is a different matter, of course.

  10. #10
    joedoe Guest
    Spanky,

    Why doesn't pre-arrange 2 man sparring count? You still feel the blows and you still wear the bruises if you stuff up. I trained sword against staff with my training brother and I can assure you we took hits, and his staff was definitely the worse for wear. We could have used a short stick instead of a sword, but we chose to use a sword. I can still apply what I learned to the short stick and I am no worse off.

    Guns don't kill people, I kill people

  11. #11
    Kevin Wallbridge Guest
    I have found few weapons more practical than a Bick pen for Bagua applications.

    However, there is a very practical reason for training with traditional heavy weaponry of medieval design. When you wield a very heavy weapon it inspires the body to relax deeply into its frame, non-internal movement just can't be sustained as long. As well, without a weapon when you connect to an opponent's limbs you can "wield" them instead. I find that when I'm training a lot of weapons work it is easier for me to twine my training partners limbs into locked shapes that they can't escape from.

    "The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

  12. #12
    JerryLove Guest
    Abandit, I think Spanky's point was that you were not trying to damage him and he was not trying to damge you. You were not really fighting with weapons, you were doing coreiographed dance with weapons.

    Of course, the SCA combat has it's share of issues, illegal targets, limitation to thrusting and hacking weapons, subjectivity of called hits, rules against flexable handles and hitting with shields/legs/etc, deliberately knocking over your foe.....

    So Spanky, you are not exactly practicing for street combat either.

  13. #13
    joedoe Guest
    Don't want to sound ignorant, but I don't know what the SCA is. I assume it is a group of people doing medieval combat?

    Just because you aren't trying to hurt each other doesn't mean you are not going at it full power. We go full power, but also try to have enough control to stop if we need to. I think this is actually harder than just slugging it out.

    Guns don't kill people, I kill people

  14. #14
    BIU JI Guest

    Bench Forms

    Alot of systems have the bench form, the other night at training sifu was demonstrating the YKM bench form and I realised that even if we don't have many places with such benchs clubs , bars and restaurants have stools so such forms still have their use yeh! particularly if someone pulls a knife.

  15. #15
    JerryLove Guest
    Abandit - Yes, the SCA is the "Society for Historical Anacronism". It is a historical society, and it has many "stick jocks". People who dress up in armor and beat on each other with weighted rattan.

    My point was not that you were not going full power. It was that in a 2-man form no one is trying to win. It is not competetive, therefore you do not really know if you are vunerable to counter strategy. In other words, it's Kata, not fighting.

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