Practical weapons

[joedoe]

Jerry,

Fair enough I guess.

BTW if it is the Society for Historical Anachronism, then why is it the SCA? Shouldn't it be the SHA? :)

And if they are dressed up in armour and using weighted rattan, how is that better than choreographed moves? If you get hit you don't get hurt (well I wouldn't think so if you had armour on anyway).

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[JerryLove]

My bad, Society for Creative Anacronysm.

And I am not trying to pick on two-person forms. I'm just pointing out the difference with sparring.

And as I also pointed out, there are problems with SCA combat from a fight-training perspective as well (I pointed out several).

[joedoe]

Jerry,

Sorry, that obviously came out wrong. I wasn't having a go at you, I was just asking questions.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[count]

Even 2 man choreographed sets serve a purpose beyond show. You are training your techniques, your timing and speed. You are training angles and distances, and you get a sense of what it is like when you are being attacked by another weapon.

Just wanted to fuel this debate up again. I still think some of the bagua weapons sets are using weapons that are practical for street defense. Sets like elbow dagger's, needles, and judges pens since these weapons can be easily carried, concealed and effective.

[les paul]

Your post is what I had in mind when I started this thread. I was hoping to start up some talk on practical chinese weapons like bagua pens/xingyi needles, chain whips, knives, short staffs and throwing stars etc. These things are very practical for defense in todays society.

I train with xingyi needles and the chain whip. Both (expecially the chain whip!) are small enouph for your pocket!) You can carry both very easly. Since street thugs travel in packs, a small weapon with a big punch could be the equalizer. A hand gun is a great example of this. But a gun does't suit me at all, being an eternal student of the martial arts. Most of these martial art weapons in the hands of a trained master are just as deadly as a hand gun.

FBI statistics prove this. I'm not sure what the exact figures were but the study went something like this.

Officers gun not drawn: knife weilding attacker kills or severly wounds officer within a 10 foot distance 90 percent of the time. (usally officer never got to pull his gun)

Gun drawn but not aimed at knife weilding attacker and all within a 10 foot range of each other: Attacker kills or severly wounds officer 70 percent of the time. 30 percent of the time officer kills or severly wounds attacker in the encounter. 15 percent both inflict lethal/fatal injuries on each other.


Gun drawn and aimed at knife weilding attacker within a 10 foot distance: 50 percent chance of both inflicting fatal wounds on eack other.

"This last statistic I was amazed about." The FBI concluded that who ever got the jump on the other usally got the best of the encounter.

*one of many conclusion:*

"So the gun isn't a magic wand after all"

Percentages went up favorably for the officers as the distance of the encounters increased beyond 10 feet. (i.e. because the hand gun's effective range)

This study was meant to show law enforcement personnal how dangerious knives etc... really are. This is why law enforcement get uptight about concealed weapons)

It also shows that a gun is just like any other weapons. In order for it to be effective, the user must be throughly trained in its use.

This study reminded me how dangerious the weapons we study actually are. I can only assume most of the officers ecountered attackers with little or no martial background besides the street smarts one learns living the thug life.

This is why I'm into studying pratical weapons These studies show they can be just as effective as a gun for self defense.

[count]

I only disagree with the way you brought it up in the first place. Instead of making a point you seemed to take a side door that was critical of people who spend time to learn classical weapons in their martial training. If you had made this the original post I might have debated, (for debates sake, mind you) that it takes so much time away from your training to become expert at some modern weapons which have no benefit to your traditional style and I am training martial arts so that I can stop a fight before it gets to the point of deadly solution. or whatever.

But I love the metal whip and it does have traditional benefits as well as practical ones. I always have a chain with me when I am walking the dogs at night. (but then I have the dogs too :-) I learned a Cane set once. By practicing the form again and again it became a part of me. It just flows in my hands like a natural extension for hitting and grabbing. To date, it is THE ONLY weapon I have ever used against another person in a street confrontation besides hands and feet. It may be the most practical weapon of all. I have NEVER made the argument that I learned the cane by learning sword or saber. If there are any similarities in the set, it is only by coincidence. The set just taught me how to move with the cane, but it was up to me to spend time with it and develop it's actual usage. Give me a cane against a knife any day! I hate knives. Knife against knife is stupid. Someone is gonna die and no one is gonna come out without a scratch. But learning the knife as a traditional weapon did teach me about the possibilities.

Your last post is an excellent one and I would be interested in doing more research to get actual statistics. We learn about gun in our classes too. We must know what ranges our techniques might be effective and when a person actually knows what they are doing with a gun and just get down on your knees and pray. We frequently get "law enforcement personal" in our class for training and they all agree with what you are saying. But I have not seen any documented studies with accurate findings to support it. So I too, will be doing some research.

I think the self defense aspect of our training IS the most important aspect of all. Unless you are going to be a teacher or a professional fighter, you do not need to learn every classical movement of a style. There are only so many hours in a day, and they should be hours well spent. But if you intend to teach someone else you should master your system first.
:cool:

[maoshan]

With all that out of the way, Now i'll write.
I agree with you Count, I hate Knives also.
But, with the average person behind that Knive,
I have no fear. He's just swinging in the air trying to get lucky,Like most bare fisted fights.

My Favorite Weapon is the Spear. my weapon of specialty is the DeerHorn. In NY in the Winter
With the right clothes, you can walk the street with with DeerHorns. Depending on my mood, I've been doing it for years.

But being purly practical,
The Judges Pen, The Chainwhip, the cane and all within hands reach. anything is a weapon in a true Martial Artist hands.
Also, How could I forget. Years ago My Sifu introduced me to the fan. A perfect weapon in the summer. And every summer I walk with mine.
The steel one wraped in silk. The fan works perfectly with the palms of Ba-Gua.

Well Just my piece.

Peace
Maoshan

[count]

Now that's something I would like to see! Hey Maoshan, I'm working on deerhorns right now. I'm really lovin'em!
:)

[beiquan]

count,
i just finished learning our northern shaolin cane set, and i agree with you that the cane is an awesome weapon... if you don't mind my asking, i'd be interested to know how you fared with it in a confrontation.

[count]

Over a parking place dispute a huge guy grabbed me by the throat with both hands and pulled me out of my car. I had the cane by my side and I took it in my hand. I hooked from underneath and locked him across both arms perfectly, set up to swing across his face. At that point, the guy was hurt and backed off making some lame excuse about not being able to fight a cripple guy. He assumed I was crippled because of the cane. So you see it was not only an effective defense and offense but the cane gave me a psychological advantage too. BTW, a large crowd saw the whole thing and applauded. Gave me a huge ego rush, and I took a bow! Got the parking place too.
:D ü