Taiji, form or function?

[neilhytholt]

If you look at push-hand type practices in other arts, it doesn't seem like push-hands is an end-all be-all in itself.

But I have yet to find anybody who agrees on the actual form applications of taiji (from a grappling and striking perspective). Therefore it would seem impossible to have a judging of the applications without actually agreeing on what they are first.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Understanding and knowing taiji does neassarly make one a great fighter.

Does, or does not.....? My view would tend to the latter.

The middle ground would be hopefully that one meets others who can demo the ideas in push hands and translate it to free hand and free step; leading to a way of understanding how and what to pratice, leading one to the essence of taiji. Having said this, if ones skills are pretty good in push hands it should be rather obvious as to what and how everything else works.

The problem with this philosophy is that it creates some interesting expectations as to what a fight, with a tai chi fighter involved, looks like. Every stylist out there wants thier fight to look like thier form, but reality has other plans and always will. The most graceful tai chi fighters I know of are that way because they practice fighting more than forms or push hands.....

[QuaiJohnCain]

But I have yet to find anybody who agrees on the actual form applications of taiji (from a grappling and striking perspective). Therefore it would seem impossible to have a judging of the applications without actually agreeing on what they are first.

Hmmm.... Postures and movements don't have concrete functions.... When it comes to a real situation, postures, principles and apps are usually mixed together in order to match the situation. On the technical side, a single movement/posture can be used as a strike, grappling move, or throw, depending on footwork, angling and postioning. But you can't get stuck on trying to define things statically. For instance, a low drilling punch is the same basic moving structure to open a door with a knob. You can use Bagua's serving tea exercise to put on a jacket pretty slick-like, too!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The problem with this philosophy is that it creates some interesting expectations as to what a fight, with a tai chi fighter involved, looks like. Every stylist out there wants thier fight to look like thier form, but reality has other plans and always will. The most graceful tai chi fighters I know of are that way because they practice fighting more than forms or push hands.....)

I would say my experience has been very different. If what one does not look or reflect ones practice then why practice?

Why is it a boxers look like boxers, wrestlers look like what they do but some how taiji does not? Again this has not been my experience, taiji looks like taiji in usage, even if one did not know taiji they probably would note something very different going on.


Post note: I never understand statements like these, how can one practice something for a long time and suddenly when called on to use it, looks nothing like what they have practiced? How does one do that?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Taiji movements are not something imposed on another but reflections of a reaction to change.


(Understanding and knowing taiji does not neassarly make one a great fighter)

thank you, it should have been does not

[imperialtaichi]

Taiji movements are not something imposed on another

I see that one of the "signatures" of fighting with Tai Chi as opposed to other martial arts is that we do NOT impose on the opponent as such; it is more like "manipulating" the opponent. While many martial arts simply "overpowers" the opponent.

So if you see someone using "Grasp Pea****'s Tail" in such a way that they are overpowering the opponent with the movements and posture, it is not really Tai Chi. But if you see the opponent being manipulated by the movements and get projected out with seemingly very very minimal force/movement then it is more like Tai Chi.

Even in push hand competitions, we often see participants pushing like Sumos; Powerful it may be (total power = internal power + muscular power), but definitely not Tai Chi and the power will reach a limit.

Ok, for all the ones who do not believe in internal power, we can substitute the "internal power" with "skilled subtle power".

Unfortunately, I do not see how with Tai Chi one can use muscular power and internal power simutaneousely effectly. So for my money, I'll place my bets on internal power

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Internal Power"... how is it expressed? Externally!

There is a balance, as in all things.. great internal potential fails without the external balance needed to express it. The most refined fuel does little when used in a crappy engine.. We tend to focus on extremes, when balance is more appropriate..

A Taiji trained fighter should be identifiable as a Taiji fighter, not too different from an Aikido player.. similar philosophies..

Be well...