In my lineage it's elliptical . . .
In my lineage it's elliptical . . .
Pre Birth is yang, linear
Post Birth is Yin, Circular
Branden, please explain your post. I've never heard of any other way of arranging it. Are the linear and circular sets just an invention of Gao? Or is it a result of the cross-training in hsing i in Beijing and Tianjin at the turn of the last century?
Perhaps I could reply more easily if I know where you are getting those definitions from.
In all the books I've read about the I Ching, both King Wen's arrangement (post-birth) and Fu Xi's arrangement (pre-birth) are intially arranged circularly. Of course, both can be written out in linear if you wish, but it doesn't change their meaning. Also, the difference between the two is that they describe the interactions of yin and yang under two different sorts of processes. So I don't see how one can be considered yin and the other yang - they are both completely balanced in this regard.
If we're talking just about baguazhang, I'm sure you know there are many circular pre-birth forms, such as Jiang Rong Qiao's original which I practice. And of course there are many linear post-birth forms such as Yan Dehua's 64 palms.
I do not believe any of this is the invention of Gao. In regards to the relationship to the I Ching, Sun Lu Tang also talks about this; as would anyone trying to draw such connections, since it's an essential part of the I Ching. Again if we're just talking about baguazhang, we see linear post-birth sets in many lineages other than Gao's (Yan Dehua of Cheng Tinghua mentioned above, Liu Dekuan's 64 palms, etc). And of course all sorts of circular pre-birth forms outside of Gao lineage (just about anyone you can think of).
Linear bagua has ballet spins on the line....
Turiyan, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan
The REAL taichi:
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http://www.wustyle.com/108.html
There is a style of bagua called bagua xingyi that, as the name indicates, mixes xingyi and bagua rather heavily while still clearly remaining bagua...
This style has xingyi techniques executed inside the circle, so it's not really linear (I liked the term "non-circular" used by someone), and not really circular either (your body isn't twisted as when you perform typical bagua moves).
In this style you can also work the most of the palm-changes in a linear fashion before performing then while doing the bagua walk after...
Sometimes you can also cross the circle, but I have seen that done only while moving "freestyle", not during the forms...
I believe this style was created by Zhang Zhao Dun (he had a heavy xingyi background before learning bagua with Cheng Ting Hua), whose most famous student is Jiang Rong Qiao...
Phoenix
TaoBoxer, I too studied Changs linear PaKua but there were 8 rows and e columns with added up to 64 individual techniques. You could mix and match them into almost any combination that you wanted to. I have the original English and Chinese of these from my days on Taiwan. If you would like I will post them.
Liu Feng Chun was a hsing-i master before studying with Dong Hai Chuan. Forms in Liu Feng Chun lineage are contain full circles, linear movement paths and semi-circles.
Pre-heaven and post-heaven, also known as pre-birth and post-birth, are based on the different arrangements of the ba gua trigrams. From a pre-birth/post-birth perspective, pre-birth ba gua is practiced walking the circle and the palm changes are done in a low, extended fashion. In many of the pre-birth changes, your head goes down lower than your butt like a fetus inside the womb(right before birth). These movements are combined with stillness of mind, ceaseless motion, and continuous change. These practices are what makes ba gua different from gung fu, and this pre-birth practice is the path to return to your original nature.
The eight pre-heaven palm changes(in the Gao system) are the inspiration for the straight line fighting forms. These forms are practiced in repetitive motion or linked together in any combination. To the person who asked about Robert Smith's book, I believe Robert Smith shows a number of the Gao post-heaven forms and then shows a method of linking them in a systematic arrangement. I have heard people say that linear ba gua looks like Xing Yi, that Xing Yi uses a vertical circle and that ba gua uses a horizontal circle. It's just not that simple. Ba gua works both the vertical and horizontal circle and even though some of the footwork and hand techniques are from Xing Yi (in the Gao system), it is the nature of the training that gives linear ba gua a different quality. Since I am not a Xing Yi practitioner, I can't go into specific details on how they are different. I've been going to Jason Tsou's Yin ba gua class with the Count. They are going to be holding a seminar(see Count's post) on their 64 palms which is like the pre-heaven ba gua training of the Gao system. It is not exactly the same, but that's what puts the gua in your ba gua. Anyway, I had a chance to show Master Tsou my eight pre-heaven palm changes which he said were similar to the 64 palms training. Jason is one of the best ba gua teachers I have ever seen. I would highly recommend that anyone who could go to that seminar go. He explains things very clearly and thoroughly, and his demonstrations are excellent.
The pre-heaven ba gua or other similar ba gua training and techniques that are unique, or only found in ba gua, is what makes the ba gua practitioner move the way he moves. This is what opens up his body, conditions his movements, and manifests the spirit of the Tao.
twdsn
ttt
twdsn
har har har
isn't that where one walks the straight circle?Originally Posted by Stranger
if we can ever get the lampshade off our heads...."Luminous beings are we."
Registered User
Count,
Your website is not working. Just see a black screen in either IE7 or Firefox.
Thanks for this thread as I've never gotten an answer to what the heck Preheaven Bagua was.
Registered User
Linear baqua is a part of training where you perform a particular series of movements in a linear motion (staright line) and then you turn around to perform the same set opposite side!
Registered User
In Gao style, the linear sets are post-heaven. Gao either made these up himself or maybe with Wu Meng Xia or his teacher Han Mu-xia. Han's and Gao's post heaven stuff are very similar.
Buddy
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