Tong Bei

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey sorry to bug you so much RD

is this the same set? http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

SLD019 is the reference number


edit: dang im needy.

also is that 'old frame hong quan' any significance here?

SLD019 is the Tai Tzu set (I hate how he does it)
SLD020 is the Lao (old) Hong Quan set (he does it pretty good), this is the form to do AFTER you learn Xiao Hong Quan, before Da Hong Quan.

A much better version of the Tai Tzu set is here on VCD:
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html
See SL270

Supposedly the most complete and authentic version of the Da Hong Quan forms are here:
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9.html
See Item Code: SL139, SL140, and SL141

Also, this is THE ONLY place where you will find the 36 posture Rou Quan form made available to the public:
See Item Code: SL114

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here is the newer (Qing Dynasty) version of the Rou Quan 36 posture form,
but you can still see from
the first 38 seconds of the form that it shares the same first section as what I mentioned previously.

If you can't see it, then you need someone to show it to you in person, sorry.
For those that can see and understand, behold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb88MRwkhes


Rou Quan is the link between ancient Tong Bei and Shaolin Tai Tzu/Hong Quan and Chen Tai Ji.

[Royal Dragon]

I would dare to say that all the movements/postures found in the various complete sets of the Rou Quan (the 18, 36, 72, and 108 posture sets) contain ALL the movements later found in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Form, the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan forms, Shaolin Pao Chui, and Chen Tai Ji.
There is not one new move seen in these forms that is not found already in Rou Quan.

Reply]
This is why I was saying that the Rou Quan & Gong may have all the moves in the 2nd and 3rd sections of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan set as well. Maybe different names, but I bet they are there.

Is Rou Quan & Rou Gong the original Louhan style? It seems to match the description I have allways heard is Louhan, especially haveing 18, 36, 72 and 108 move forms. I allways heard there was a 54 move form too that seems to be missing though.

[Royal Dragon]

hey sorry to bug you so much RD

is this the same set? http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

SLD019 is the reference number

Reply]
Yes, it's the same set, but more jazzed up for show than the one I linked you to before.

[Royal Dragon]

Sal,
Is this ---> Shaolin Old Frame Hong Quan Item Code: SLD020 http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

the same set as this? ----> Item Code: SL255 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html


Also, what is this one?-----> Item Code: HF003 http://www.cmaod.com/HongFistVCD.html

[PangQuan]

Much thanks for the wonderful clarification here guys!

helps me out a lot.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,
Is this ---> Shaolin Old Frame Hong Quan Item Code: SLD020 http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

the same set as this? ----> Item Code: SL255 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html


Also, what is this one?-----> Item Code: HF003 http://www.cmaod.com/HongFistVCD.html

SLD020 is the Lao Hong Quan that is also called Lao (old) Da Hong Quan.
This set clearly is the next set after the traditional Xiao Hong Quan.

SL255 is yet another Lao Hong Quan, and it might be the Middle Hong Quan.
It is very different from SLD020, very short, and according to this well respected teacher (who has same teacher's as Shi Degian) it is one of the ancient Shaolin Hong Quan sets.

The HF003 set is from an entirely different style of long fist, from Shanxi province, it is not like anything else I have seen coming from Shaolin. It is the real "Red" fist style, as the Shaolin Hong Quan, the character for Hong means "Flowing" or "Flood" not Red as most people mistakenly translate it (the commies started that error in motion).

[LFJ]

whoa, what about the 1-7 luohan forms there?

[Sal Canzonieri]

whoa, what about the 1-7 luohan forms there?

No, that's legit, they are from the late Ming / early Qing dynasty Luohan Quan sets.

I have this whole set, it's all the Luohan that I have ever seen still being done at Shaolin.

This teacher is very respected and his linage is too by everyone that knows about Shaolin lineages.

[Sal Canzonieri]

[This is why I was saying that the Rou Quan & Gong may have all the moves in the 2nd and 3rd sections of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan set as well. Maybe different names, but I bet they are there.

Is Rou Quan & Rou Gong the original Louhan style? It seems to match the description I have allways heard is Louhan, especially haveing 18, 36, 72 and 108 move forms. I allways heard there was a 54 move form too that seems to be missing though.

I've been working on that for a year now, eventually I will crack it (re: finding the ER Lu and San Lu Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan forms).

There are various Luohans, when you speak of Shaolin, depending on the time period. It's easy to get confused.

The Xiao, Da, and so on Luohan that most are familiar with is one separate system. The Da is 108 movements, the Xiao is 54.
There is the Er Lu Luohan form as well. Plus a bunch more.

There is the 18 Luohan hands set of 144 moves too.

All those are a separate system from different time periods than what we have been talking about in this and other threads when mentioning Rou Quan.

Rou Quan comes from Rou Qong internal exercises, and these come from mixture of nei gong sets, ONE of which is the Luohan 13 move qi gong (notice it is not 18, they don't mean the 18 different luohan people, they mean simply 13 movements that are Luohan internal exercises.)
These 13 Luohan qi gong movements, since they are what ancient Rou Quan (sui to tang dynasty?) uses as a base, are very ancient to Shaolin.

They should not be mixed up with any other kind of Luohan.

The small Rou Quan set is about 20 something moves, and there are 18 different moves in them (not counting repeats), they are martial movements made from the 13 Luohan qi gong movements, plus a few others that make 18 different postures.

I know it is very confusing, but if you work by time period, as I do in research and practice of forms, then it stays separated and is not so confusing.
I separate all my material by sets created from the Yuan Dynasty to the end of the Qing Dynasty
and anything created During the Song Dynasty and before.

[Jingwu Man]

what about Dahong 4 and 6?

[Sal Canzonieri]

what about Dahong 4 and 6?

Yeah, the Hong Quan system had a lot of forms, some are from the original Hong Quan sets that are from Rou Quan (Xiao and Lao Hong Quan) and some are from another time period, around the late 1200s/early 1300s.

These later sets of Hong Quan are set to have been added to Shaolin archives by Li Sou, who went to Shaolin along with Bai Yu Feng, at the request of Jue Yuan.

The Da Hong Quan sets are most likely from this later Hong Quan.

Also, I possess a drawings book from Shi Dejian of yet another series of Shaolin Hong Quan sets (1-5) that are very different from the Xiao Hong Quan looking stuff and the Da Hong Quan looking stuff!
Talk about hair pulling!

(To make things even more confusing:
Also there are OTHER unrelated styles that have Hong Quan systems out there,
Cha Quan has a series of Hong Quan sets, about 4 or so;
Shanxi province has their own Hong Quan system (red Fist);
then there is the Tai Tzu Hong Quan system that was created by Emperor Zhao Kuan Yin's soldiers, when they returned home from their commission, it is based on Tai Tzu from the Emperor and whatever martial arts the soldiers already knew, which depends on the garrison they were in. Most of them knew Cha Quan or some kind of related Moslem martial art, his inner guard, were from Sichuan and they did some kind of Emei related martial art called Nei Jia Quan, which is where all the INTERNAL talk first started coming out, his it was his inner guard and they did Internal Family Fist.
Weird but true.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

oh, I forgot to mention that one of the Nei Gong the ROu Quan is based on is the Luohan 13 Gong.

And what other style is most famous for its 13 postures?