whoops sorry. the vcd's
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whoops sorry. the vcd's
A BJJ player and notorious pimp, Da Big Deezy, in the Crenshaw district tried to "raise up" and "slap a ho" ..... I impaled him with my retractible naginata. I wish there were more groundfighters in the world. They make my arsenal that much more deadly. - john takeshi
LIKE FROG IN WELL LOOKING UP AT SKY,THINKING SEE ALL WORLD. - truthman
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I recently learnt the Shaolin Tong Bei form, it's a fairly short form with only 40 - 50 moves.
it's the third form in the temple system. the first two are: wu bo chuan and lien huan chuan.
holds no rank
i got the dvd of Shi Deyang's da tong bei and i like it a lot. It starts with a scene of over a hundred people in monk robes doing the form together one part at a time on the temple grounds. from the, something like "original boxing tree of traditional shaolin kungfu" series Guangzou Beauty Culture Communications company.
not to be spammy but i am a fan of Shi Deyang's kung fu.
Master...Teach me kung fu.
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On Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei Martial Art
Authors: GuoCheng Li and Wesley W. Wang, Ph.D.
Research Institute of Five-Element Tong-Bei Martial Art
Yantai, Shandong, China
1. History of Tong-Bei Martial Art
In the years of Daoguang administration of Qing dynasty in China, Master Xing Qi (祁信) came to a town named Gongchun in the Gu-An County of Hebei province. He left the Ji County of Hebei where he was in troubles. He took residence in a shop owned by Jia. One day, Jia was involved in an armed-fight with others to own a ferry station by the Liuli River. Qi picked up a long pole to help Jia, winning a complete victory. From then on, Qi’s reputation grew rapidly. He got a nickname of “Pole Master Qi”. There, he took disciples and founded a new martial art style that was called Qi’s Tong-Bei (note that Qi was his family name, not the concept “Qi (气)” often referred by Chinese martial art works).
After Xing Qi passed away, his son, Taichang Qi (祁太昌), inherited all his father’s martial arts. Moreover, Taichang studied other styles of martial arts and eventually formed his own style. Different from his father’s style, which featured solid moves with great body openings and closings, his style exhibited more flexible and efficient moves. Since then, Taichang’s style was called Young Qi’s Tong-Bei to differentiate from the Old Qi’s Tong-Bei as developed by his father. Both styles have been continued to develop, one generation after another. A flow chart with respect to time illustrates the development of the two styles.
Xin Qi （Old Qi’s Style）-->Taichang Qi （Young Qi’s Style）-->Tianhe Xu （Young Qi’s Style）--> Jianchi Xiu （Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei）-->Yaoting Wang （Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei）-->Guocheng Li （Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei）
Qi Xin （Old Qi’s Style）-->Qin Chen（Old Qi’s Style）-->Zhanchun Wang（Old Qi’s Style）
It is known that milestones in the history of Chinese martial arts development are usually represented by martial art practitioners. To review Tong-Bei’s evolution, it would be more appropriated to introduce those prominent Tong-Bei martial artists who made important contributions to the development of Tong-Bei martial art in history.
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Great to see that bit of history, but that style has nothing to do with Shaolin Tong Bei fists, they are completely different and unrelated.
The shaolin tong bei forms are just variations of their hong quan sets, with some extra moves added.
prime rib rocks hard!
I know 2 tong bie forms. the one from shaolin my sifu learnt from shi yan ming. and the wushu version i learned from former zheijang team member kong ling dong (tong bie champion). both vastly different.
Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis
Unregistered User
i notice this happens a lot.
i wish there was an easy way to differentiate the tong bei sets.
i however will not be learning this set any time soon. I decided to stop at dahongquan and just work xiao hong quan and da hong quan until i know it inside and out, in the dark, on greese, in a hailstorm, with an itch in the middle of my back i just cant reach.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
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Add The Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form in there too, it's part of that same system.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
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now that you mention it...ive noticed that also.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Registered User
According to Sal, it goes lke this
Rou Quan ---> Tai Tzu Chang Chuan ---> Xiao Hong, Lao Hong and Da Dong
These are all the same system.
I suspect though, if we had access to the full Tai tzu Chang Chuan form, instead of just the first section, you would not need to practice any of the others.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Unregistered User
really?
thats something i did not know.
so in those 10 famous shaolin sets the xiaohong, dahong and changchuan forms are all the same style? my memory is fuzzy, those 3 are the only listed from your list that are in those 10 sets commonly grouped together? or is Rou Quan and Lao Hong also part of that 10 set package deal? i have to admit im a tad confused but i would like to get it straight. If this is the case i need to learn the Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Lao Hong. in addition. are these 3-5 (depending on your answer to which are part of that 10 set packate) sets that are the same style the only ones from these 10 sets that are the same style?
or are all 10 sets just one style?
i have to say i enjoy the xiaohongquan and dahongquan so much, more so than any other set i have ever learned. I would really like to know more about the connection with this style to other sets.
that listing you have there, is that chronological?
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Registered User
The list is cronological so far as historical evolution goes, and all the same system. If the Hong Quan sets are what you like, then you like the style of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and need to learn all the forms I listed.
I think the 10 core sets are a buffet sampler of what Shaolin has as far as styles go. You pick what you like, and then learn that system.
Remember, Shaolin is not a style, it's like a martial university that offeres courses in many styles. You could look at the 10 core sets as an intro course to thier most popular styles. Once you find one you like, then you go and learn the whole system and forget the rest.
Last edited by Royal Dragon; 05-03-2007 at 07:50 PM.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
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so in those 10 famous shaolin sets the xiaohong, dahong and changchuan forms are all the same style?
Reply]
Yes, they are the style known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.
my memory is fuzzy, those 3 are the only listed from your list that are in those 10 sets commonly grouped together? or is Rou Quan and Lao Hong also part of that 10 set package deal?
Reply]
If I understand you right, The 3 forms in the 10 famous sets from that system all go together as part of the same system, BUT not all of the forms from that system are in the 10 standard sets. Also, I don't think the 10 standard ses teach the full Da Hong. I may be wrong, but it's my understanding only the first section is taught. You only get the whole form if you specialise in that system.
I have to admit im a tad confused but i would like to get it straight. If this is the case i need to learn the Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Lao Hong. in addition. are these 3-5 (depending on your answer to which are part of that 10 set packate) sets that are the same style the only ones from these 10 sets that are the same style?
Reply]
ONLY Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Chuan and Tai Tzu Chang Chuan are the same style. The rest of the 10 sets are other popular Shaolin styles.
Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and the 3 Hong forms are the curriculem for the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan style. If you specialise in Tai Tzu, you would want to learn these 5 sets in full.
As I understand it, the 10 basic sets are not complete either. Most of the forms have several sections, and only the first sections are taught because the 10 famous forms are just a Sampler of Shaolin's most popular styles. You have to pick one and specialise in it to get the full forms.
Cannon Fist for example, like Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, is an entire style unto itself, and only the first section of the first form is taught in the 10 famous Shaolin forms.
Last edited by Royal Dragon; 05-03-2007 at 08:06 PM.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Registered User
Ahm, uh, let me give you the clear info:
There are various systems of sets within Shaolin's history.
The Luohan Quan Gate is also called the Hong Quan Gate and is also called the Pao Chui gate, depending on when in history they are mentioned.
The most ancient Shaolin sets from Tang Dynasty or so are the:
- Xin Yi Ba - 144 exercise routines (not sets, but different rows of movements, like drills)
- Rou Gong and Luohan Qi Gong sets
- Rou Quan sets merge Tong Bei (originally Taoist style) movements with Rou Gong and Luohan Gong and make a self defense style for OLD monks to practice. There is a 18 move set, a 36 move set, and a 108 move set. The 72 move set is not made public.
There is a modern (Qing Dynasty) version of the Rou Quan, which mixes it with Luohan Quan that is now taught as a form by today's Shaolin monks. It is barely at all like the original Rou Quan and should not be confused with it.
It is VERY hard to find someone to teach you the old Rou Quan forms, they are very protected. These sets possess what REAL Shaolin is, not modern wushu athletics it has turned into. Only old monks know it.
By the Song dynasty, the Rou Quan was used as a base to create Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan, merging it with movements that Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin send his generals to Shaolin to teach them about and perserve.
Later, not known when, Ming Dynasty or before, the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan sets were developed. Later the Da Hong Quan was developed. Around this time the Pao Chui sets were also developed and are clearly part of this system.
(All other sets from Shaolin are from the Qing Dynasty and are considered Modern sets, even if they use the Hong Quan movements, which most do, such as their Tong Bei sets)
The first section of all Rou Quan sets, Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan (set 1 of 3), Xiao and Lao Hong Quan, Pao Chui, are ALL identical. That's how you can recognize a set from this system, the first section is always the same if it is related.
Also, the first section of famous Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia form (and from that Yang and Wu tai ji) are identical to the first section of these Shaolin sets.
SO, they all are part of one system.
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You mean the 2nd and 3rd sets of Shaolin Chang Quan?
I doubt that is true at all.
Judging from the names of the movements in those two forms, they are additional material, not substitute material for anything that is in these Hong Quan or other related sets.
In fact, all these sets are variations of material found in the complete set of Rou Quan forms.
And, I also think that the supposed existence of the 16 section of tai tzu is made up by the people who made the vcds of the 1st and 2nd section. There is no 16 section set from the Song Dynasty era.
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