identical? in what way?Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
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identical? in what way?
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They all have the same sequence of movements / postures, with slight stylistic differences.
All the same movements functionally, applicationally, visually, etc. from their opening movements to about White Crane Spreads Its Wings.
After that move most of these forms do something like or exactly like Brush Knee Twist Step as well at that point.
You can see the evolution in time periods from Rou Quan to Tai Tzu to Hong Quan to Pao Chui to Chen Tai Ji, as the movements slightly change based on new ideas.
What makes it beyond coincidence is the movements/postures are in the SAME sequence.
Also, most of the movements have the same names.
AND, the original Rou Quan movements can be done with a staff, like all ancient Shaolin forms can be done, and also with double swords or knives, and not only that but all the Rou Quan movements are the same as classic Tong Bei sequence of movements. Tong Bei is an internal style, thousands of years old, that the military practiced, and it has its own nei gong exercises.
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wow. thanks for the info guys.
so let me try and line this up.
Rou Quan - good luck on me finding this, right? So I shouldnt really bother.
Tai Tzu Chang Chuan - need to learn
Lau Hong - need to learn. (how similar is this to xiaohong and dahong? also, how common of a set is this to be found)
xiao hong - the set i know is very similar to most sets i have seen. I havent seen any sections in other sets that are not found in mine, though some sections may be performed a bit differently, roughly its all the same. though i have seen many people do this form and have missing parts that are found in mine.
da hong - personal history: When i first learned this set, i learned it one on one from my old sifu. After i had known this set for about 8 months, he decided to teach it to the rest of the students at the school. HOWEVER, he taught them a different version. While similar to the version i was taught, certain parts were missing and replaced with other parts. when the most senior student asked him about this he said i only learned part of the form. SO it would seem he taught the rest of the students (including myself) different part of the set. Since i have left the school i have worked for some time to combine the two versions i know. I feel that i have done a pretty good job doing this but would desperately like to compare this with someone familiar with the entire version.
now here is my delima. My old Sifu teaches all of those 10 sets from shaolin. Yet to train at his school you have to also train the rest of his material, which is half modern wushu. I dont want to learn modern wushu anymore.
So for me to find someone to teach me the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and Lao Hong (Lao Hong not contained in those 10 sets if memory serves me) and not try to teach me everything else, should be rather tough.
So for now i suppose ill just continue to study the xiao hong and da hong and hope in the future i can find someone to teach me Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and Lao Hong.
I wouldnt mind learning some other Styles from shaolin, but i would not want to learn too much at once aside from this style. in addition im not really interested in learning any modern wushu.
so the question is, who can teach me the rest of this style
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
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http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html
The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form is SL270
This is as close as you are going to get from a comercial vid.
Sal Canzonieri knows the Tai Tzu form though.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
+
=
& a
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These are modern Whusu versions, but you get the basic shape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1lebnmM1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1E...elated&search=
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
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i dont see that at all.
i've studied both songshan shaolin and chen style taijiquan. so i'm familiar with those opening sequences to the forms. they are completely different. like the opening sequence to xiaohongquan and chen style laojia are nothing alike. xiaohong and laohong even.
so i have no idea what you are talking about.
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You mean the 2nd and 3rd sets of Shaolin Chang Quan?
Reply]
Yes.
I doubt that is true at all.
Judging from the names of the movements in those two forms, they are additional material, not substitute material for anything that is in these Hong Quan or other related sets.
Reply]
I was hoping that the techniques in the 2nd and 3rd sets were found in the Hong Quan sets.
In fact, all these sets are variations of material found in the complete set of Rou Quan forms.
Reply]
Does ths mean that the techniques in the 2nd and 3rd sections of Tai tzu are also found in the Rou Quan/ Rou Gong sets?
Last edited by Royal Dragon; 05-04-2007 at 11:15 AM.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Unregistered User
so this would be a good resource once i find someone to teach me the form im assuming.
what about the Lao Hong? how commonly known is that?
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Unregistered User
i also purchased the Shi Diyang XiaoHong and DaHong video series to compare what i know.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Registered User
You could rough out the form from the VCD now, since you have experiance in the Xiao and Da Hong forms. Then find a teacher to refine you later.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Unregistered User
sounds good to me lol
is that sight you posted pretty secure to use my debit card on?
edit: also it says all vids are in mandarin, and boy does my potunghua suck!
since the sight im on is in english, could i assume english subtitles?
Last edited by PangQuan; 05-04-2007 at 11:30 AM.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Registered User
Yes, I have bought a lot from them over the years.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Unregistered User
hey sorry to bug you so much RD
is this the same set? http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html
SLD019 is the reference number
edit: dang im needy.
also is that 'old frame hong quan' any siginificance here?
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Unregistered User
Thank you SOOOO much for your time spent helping me on this.
it really means a lot
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Registered User
If I could show it to you somehow I would.
When I make some video comparisons on my website I will let you know.
The older the people doing the Chen taiji, the closer it looks to Shaolin. Today's modern Chen stylists are streamlining it much further away.
I already proved that the Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu form matches in a one to one correspondence to the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan form a few months back in KungFu Magazine (of this website). I made a table in the article that gives the correspondances.
The Chen lao Jia yi lu form follows the same sequence of movements and takes them from three Shaolin forms: Rou Quan 108, Xiao Hong Quan, and Tai Tzu Chang Quan Yi Lu.
After the opening "salute" to the Chen form (lao Jia yi lu, for example), when the arms wave to the right, then wards to the left and "Holds the ball", and then "holds the ball" to the right, and then it does the "Jingang Pounds the Mortar" move, then it does the "Lazily Tying Coat / 6 Sealings & 4 Closings", then "Single whip, and then "White Crane Spreads Wings" going into the Brush Knee stuff.
All of this is functionally the same as the movements in those 3 Shaolin forms as well.
see this video of these 80 year olds doing the Chen tai ji forms, people don't do the forms like this anymore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uu7ghVNt4M
Unfortunately this video has the very first opening sequence missing, so look at it from
3:36 to 4:04, which is another old guy doing the Chen Er Lu, the Pao Chui, (same opening sequence as Chen Yi Lu).
A third old guy doing Yi Lu at 5:59.
Earlier back in the video, from 0:9 seconds to 0: 15 seconds in that video, the old man is doing Chen Yi Lu and in the Rou Quan forms that is the exact same moves (going back to Tang dynasty or earlier, mind you) called "Old Man Splits Wood" and "Lazily Tying on Coat".
At the same point in time in the Tai Tzu form these exact movements are made.
In the Xiao Hong Quan form these movements are essentially the same, if you slow it all down to tai ji speed, you will see that you are doing the same things,
wave to the right, wave to the left, push hand/hold ball to the left, close up/hold ball to the right, ward left, then "lazily tying coat" to the right.
The key to it all it the Rou Quan, if you learn those forms (18, 36, 72, and 108 move sets) you will see that you are essentially doing the same things in the first row as you are doing in Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Xiao and Lao Hong Quan, Pao Chui, and Chen Tai Ji.
Of course they are not carbon copy exactly the same move, but you can see how they are evolving / changing in time from Rou Quan eventually to Chen Tai Ji.
I would dare to say that all the movements/postures found in the various complete sets of the Rou Quan (the 18, 36, 72, and 108 posture sets) contain ALL the movements later found in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Form, the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan forms, Shaolin Pao Chui, and Chen Tai Ji.
There is not one new move seen in these forms that is not found already in Rou Quan.
The ONLY exception is the Shaolin Pao Chui have some extra stuff in them that is also found in the Chang Nei Jia Quan style.
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