the boxers weave

[qiphlow]

kick the crap out of the legs, then watch him fall down.

[SiuHung]

Tip#1: Don't take advice on tactics from anyone who doesn't or has not fought.

As an overall strategy, TT's advice is sound because it works from linear attacks to circular, and in many way's is similar to the boxer's strategy of using jab, cross (linear), hook (circular).

If you're Hung Ga, don't play the boxer's game, i.e. don't box them. Crowding is fine, but it takes both balls and toughness. You can strike the body, head, or lower gates, whatever openings present, but always in combination...do not focus on one thing only. Use angles and footwork to nullify or at least force them to reposition and adjust.

Good Luck!

[Ao Qin]

This is a great topic for kungfu students - I have found that this has been the most difficult aspect for me to spar with - the "rythym" (can't even spell the word) ducking, weaving, bobbing, dancing, in and out, etc. - float like a butterfly, etc.

But, I have had some sucess when I don't try to play their game. Like a cobra, they are hoping you will be mesmorized and try to emulate their movements - then you're toast. Hypnosis, basically. Don't play their game.

In my style (Dragon), I simply wait for them to commit. Either stand and wait for an opportunity, or assume a posture if they are very skilled - swivel the back leg and maintain your centreline. Confuse them with small hand movements. Let them bounce around. Wait for them to come to you. Once they attack / commit (and don't confuse a true threat), then do what you were trained to do - move into them quickly and destroy as best you can - grab, tear, punch, gouge, knee, throw down, etc. Commitment being the key - go in and "kill" the guy. Like my first teacher told me, take one hit, give three back in return. So, take his jab(s), but don't mistake a jab for commitment.

I don't believe there is too much "skill" involved in (real) combat - just commitment. They guy who is enraged, has nothing to lose and everything to gain will usually win (e.g suicide bomber). I'm not talking about a true master of any art of course! Just 99% of the people who practice traditional martial arts (including myself).

ta - aq

[Yum Cha]

A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit.

Tangle the feet, disrupt the rhythm, take him out of his comfort zone and into yours.

No easy solution, just another tactic to employ as you experiment. Boxers have a great game, don't disrespect it.

[Crushing Fist]

easiest answer is play range... use your legs, your kicks should be far superior and will keep him away. use the low kicks to disrupt him then go in for the kill.


like other people said here, don't play his game.

once you get inside stay there going for throws and locks, but watch out when disengaging.

basically long range and extreme close range are where you should be stronger.

if you try to box him he'll pick you apart, its his game.

[SanShou Guru]

If he is a well trained boxer he will beat you like a redheaded stepson. Let me guess he is never it the right place for you to hit him well. He is too close or too far away. When you do hit him it is hard to land with power because the shots roll off or seem to glance.

The notion that boxers by being on their toes have no root is ignorant. Good boxers weigh nothing when they move but a thousand pounds when they punch or they are a bad boxer. He will be faster than you, hit harder than you, land punches in combination, have a softer more reactive guard, be able to punch at a longer range, be able to punch while retreating, be able to attack at angles, be able to punch hard at very short range, counter punch. If he has sparred a great deal more than you have you need to learn to fight more like he does. Why? Because it works.

Now if you have very good feet you can keep him at range. Kick kick and kick, low and head, kick when he punches. Kick when you think he is going to punch, kick before he punches. Problem is two fold, a good boxer will find your rhythm and timing and you will get tired way faster than he will.

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

But what do I know, I have only been in San Shou for 15 years, been to Worlds as a fighter once and coached national team fighters five times. My coach was the only martial artist to be no the US National team for San Shou and Forms and never used traditional moves are they are practiced in forms either sparring or in the ring. The principles can work. I used Hsing I basics in many of my fights with success. I have fought against traditional fighters many times on the Lei Thai and they were all easy fights. In fact I would usually just push them off so I would not risk injury for the next round and not have to hurt some guy using Bagwa circling, or Wing Chung or some other nonsense. Good fighers know how to fights. Good forms guys know good forms. Practice beats theory pretty much every time. When you have practiced enough i.e. sparred a ton (500+ rounds) then theory is reintroduced.

[YMC]

Not trying to troll or derail the thread (honestly!) but based on the the following comments

Now if you have very good feet you can keep him at range. Kick kick and kick, low and head, kick when he punches. Kick when you think he is going to punch, kick before he punches. Problem is two fold, a good boxer will find your rhythm and timing and you will get tired way faster than he will. .....I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

why train in a traditional Chinese style at all with the hope of becoming a competent fighter or augmenting one's skills at all? In fact, although you point out that one can add traditional theory or styles after proficency in basic boxing techniques is gleened (which makes a lot of sense to me), the only examples you used wherein you used such things were against traditional style fighters, who wouldn't stand a chance against a good boxer anyway based on the above comments.

As someone who seems to have a great deal of practical experience and is apparently versed in both traditional and "modern" arts, what would you say you gained from the more traditional end of things?

[SanShou Guru]

Tai Chi can be a great way to soften a stiff fighter and develop a great root for punching but Wave Hand like Clouds will get Head Punched like Heavybag. Hsing I gave me a sick root that saved me many times. What drives me crazy is when people spout traditional counters against well trained fighters.

The root principles are often correct but forms were meant to practice the bare bones not as direct application. Learning the timing in a fight takes months, keeping it takes practice.

[Pork Chop]

San Shou Guru

Hey coach how's it goin? Was stayin in touch with Jurgen for like almost a year there, then he disappeared.

Gotta admit, my advice was a lil cookie cutter, but it was based on the old addage "don't bob n weave too much in muay thai or you'll catch a knee". My thai coaches *hated* even changing level for body shots. The stuff coach Julio (trujillo) would show us would make my thai coaches cringe.

One thing I noticed that works alright, particularly on boxers without a ton of experience is lifting parries- kinda like that move in hsing yi. It would work once or twice, till they figured it out, or at least saw it coming- then "ow".

Leg kicking the front leg as soon as a boxer puts weight on it to throw, or blasting it if he's trying to do stationary weaving has always worked for me in the past. *shrug* Then again, not sure i was one of the ones you were referring to.

[SanShou Guru]

Jugen is in town this weekend actually. I can get his new email if you need it, send me a pm if you want it and I will get it.

Yea you duck too much in Sanda and/or Muay Thai and bad things can happen. We train our people to not duck too low but more lateral slipping. Same thing goes for Shooting, drop too early, eat a knee. You want to see you Muay Thai coach cringe? Start using sidekicks. They look at it like it is a math problem and they are an art history major. Time it off their "life ending round kick" and it about as hard to land as hitting a heavy bag. Time it wrong and, well, they may end you life.

[Pork Chop]

They were okay with side kicks as long as they were the "step off at a slight angle and then side kick as he comes in".

GOD FORBID i did any kind of sliding kick (ie a normal sanshou side kick)- they'd make me do pushups while they had a coronary. Being so conscious of sliding/skipping did adversely affect my kicking, as well as my ability to judge distance. Then again, I have weird lapses- about 6 months ago I woke up and forgot how to front/push kick (footjab); still haven't really got it back. Trying to switch between boxing, sanshou, and muay thai, really gives me issues with my stance, footwork, and useable tools.

[WinterPalm]

Train the basics more...If that doesn't help, take off the gloves and go at it freestyle so that you are more in your realm. I agree that under boxing rules the boxer is going to be better prepared, that is what he does, but why play that game other than to learn a few things. I wouldn't take it to heart, work on some other techniques, Hung Gar must have more than a handful of good techniques!

[PangQuan]

a tennis player will always beat a baseball player at tennis, and vise versa.


if your constricted to a boxing format when sparring with this person, pick up a few more skills. inquire, learn, and improve your overall game.

if how ever its more of a free fighting format, do not box him.

as many others have said, use your legs.

"fight a boxer, box a fighter." probably sounds familiar.


ive noticed that when sparring my kung fu brothers if i switch over to western boxing, it really boffles them up. (especially swithcing between kung fu and boxing )

legs will be your best friend. until you learn to box.

[couch]

If he is a well trained boxer he will beat you like a redheaded stepson. Let me guess he is never it the right place for you to hit him well. He is too close or too far away. When you do hit him it is hard to land with power because the shots roll off or seem to glance.

The notion that boxers by being on their toes have no root is ignorant. Good boxers weigh nothing when they move but a thousand pounds when they punch or they are a bad boxer. He will be faster than you, hit harder than you, land punches in combination, have a softer more reactive guard, be able to punch at a longer range, be able to punch while retreating, be able to attack at angles, be able to punch hard at very short range, counter punch. If he has sparred a great deal more than you have you need to learn to fight more like he does. Why? Because it works.

Now if you have very good feet you can keep him at range. Kick kick and kick, low and head, kick when he punches. Kick when you think he is going to punch, kick before he punches. Problem is two fold, a good boxer will find your rhythm and timing and you will get tired way faster than he will.

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

But what do I know, I have only been in San Shou for 15 years, been to Worlds as a fighter once and coached national team fighters five times. My coach was the only martial artist to be no the US National team for San Shou and Forms and never used traditional moves are they are practiced in forms either sparring or in the ring. The principles can work. I used Hsing I basics in many of my fights with success. I have fought against traditional fighters many times on the Lei Thai and they were all easy fights. In fact I would usually just push them off so I would not risk injury for the next round and not have to hurt some guy using Bagwa circling, or Wing Chung or some other nonsense. Good fighers know how to fights. Good forms guys know good forms. Practice beats theory pretty much every time. When you have practiced enough i.e. sparred a ton (500+ rounds) then theory is reintroduced.

Great advice.

About the question YMC asked about why learn traditional ways of fighting:
(and this is just my opinion)

The way a boxer moves, sticks, weaves, bobs and throws those arms with the shoulder protecting the chin has stood the test of time in the ring. (This has evolved over time, improving everything to work within the construct of the ring with the proper gear...)

I don't think the problem lies with learning the "Traditional" way of fighting, I think it has to do with the "Traditional" way of thinking.

Just cuz you spent all this time learning some special footwork and way of doing things, doesn't mean that it's useless, but don't be afraid to free your own mind and do things your own way. The problem, I feel, is that the martial arts of old were good against martial arts of old, but they have failed to evolve with time (and the way people are fighting TODAY).

This is because we all feel like the Old Master created something that nobody can improve on.

I also think that getting dumped in using your MA with someone/some delivery system that your MA wasn't designed to deal with (or perhaps that you're not used to) doesn't work all that well. It's true that with time that things might get better...but you need to slow things down and find out how to defend against these different attacks.

Then you can go full speed again.

Best in luck. I have been studying MA for over 12 years, with 3 years in Wing Chun Kung-Fu. I decided to mix it up with a couple of MMA friends (one who has quite a lot of BJJ experience). I got my a55 handed to me.

No stress...I then decided to train just as hard as they do and stop pretending that not hitting my opponent/getting hit was always benificial, etc. Don't be afraid to expand your ideas, add a jab into what you already know, skip rope and do burpies!!!

Best,
Kenton

[neilhytholt]

IMHO wave hands like clouds (or whatever it's called with inward, not outward parries) was designed to fight punchers. At full speed and full force, it's very effective, but it must be executed close to the fighter. I used it a lot.

The reason TMA doesn't do well against ring sports is because most TMA people don't train like the ring sports do, with muscle and they don't train against real punching, etc., which is why it fails.

When I first fought boxers I got my ass handed to me until I figured out that I need to move faster and hit harder. Once that happened I was breaking noses accidentally until I figured out how to hook better.

The first time I fought a boxer he hit me hard like 5 times bang, bang, bang, and I was just shocked because I wasn't used to getting punched.