the boxers weave

[Pork Chop]

IMHO wave hands like clouds (or whatever it's called with inward, not outward parries) was designed to fight punchers.

I think it works *much* better against kicks; it's how i do my scooping kick catches.

[Shiva]

i tried using more kicks and leg attacks tonight and it worked real well. he couldn't get close enough to me to launch his boxing stuff. now i just need to work it in with the upperbody combos.

[Yum Cha]

Good on you Shiva.

Resist the temptation to throw your art over for a quick fix and you'll learn to make it work for you. It isn't easy, it isn't quick and it takes practice.

I'll bet your buddy is logging onto his boxing forum right now, asking what to do to deal with leg kicks....

Make them play your game, whatever it is. If they don't understand it, all the better.

Enjoy.

[phoenixdog]

Two suggestions against the western boxer that is adept at weaving,slipping,ducking,bobing....
a.don't telegraph.practice in front of a mirror.If his weaving is working well against you,he's got your timing down.
b.attack the body until he stops weaving and then follow up to the head.

[TenTigers]

didn't you say you were from Hung-Ga? Well then use your Hung-Ga! Crowd him, take away his range, eat up his space, be on him like white on rice.
our motto is,
"When your opponent moves in-you move in.
When your opponent moves out-You move in.
When your opponent stands still-you move in."
-it's a no-brainer
Remember, train your Gung-Fu for fighting, not for sport. Don't play with him, finish him. Don't dance around the ring, take him. Don't go for rounds, go for the kill.
Attack first-hit first, hit fast, hit hard, and be relentless. Don't stop until he's finished.

[BruceSteveRoy]

gwa cup against boxers is fun. especially if they have no idea what it is. i have a friend that is an ameteur boxer and he and i were just fooling around last week. he stepped in and i threw the gwa which he was transfixed by just long enough for the cup choy to do its job. he said he couldn't even see it. but i think if the timing had been wrong or the distance was wrong i would have just been open for him to hit vigorously and repeatedly. if you miss with it it is very important to recover quickly (obviously) otherwise the only blocking surface you will have at your disposal is your face and thats just not good for business.

[TenTigers]

this is a valid point. That is why we practice continuous strikes, one flowing into the next. My Hung-Ga has been over the past few generations, highly influenced by CLF, which is known for throwing continuous strikes such as gwa/cup. One of the most startling differences between Hung-Ga and CLF is the way they seem to practice. Hung-Ga seems to enjoy the one shot deal. This all or nothing mentality is what will cause you to be open if you miss with the gwa/cups, and the continuous flow of CLF is what will enable you to recover. The two styles mix quite well, as can be seen in Buck Sum Kong's Fu-Hok P'ai schools where both Hung-Ga and CLF are taught, and some lineages of Hung-Ga that have elements of both, as well as Jow-Ga,Lama,and Hop-Ga.
In this way, the technique is the same, buy yo can change your mindset.

[Mr Punch]

Actually, what I found is that boxers are very predictible. They'll come in with some flurries, and then go out, come in and go out a little side to side.

What seemed to work very well was wait until they come in, do wave hands like clouds (or whatever) to parry their punches, and then just floor them with a straight punch to the face. I guess if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch.

Dayum, it's only May, and we already have the Mostest Stupid Post of the Year!

Pssst, Neil, those weren't boxers: stop beating retards! It's not nice!

... but wait, another candidate!

...But, I have had some sucess when I don't try to play their game. Like a cobra, they are hoping you will be mesmorized and try to emulate their movements - then you're toast. Hypnosis, basically. Don't play their game...

Like a cobra they are punching your soon-to-be foetal form repeatedly round the head and ribs. Boxers don't try and hypnotise you. That's hynotists.

Either stand and wait for an opportunity, or assume a posture if they are very skilled - swivel the back leg and maintain your centreline. Confuse them with small hand movements...

This is so hilarious I can't even attempt a parody.

But wait, Yum Cha, I'm surprised at you and your late entry into the competition:

A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit.

See San Shou Guru for the correct answer.

once you get inside stay there going for throws and locks, but watch out when disengaging...
basically long range and extreme close range are where you should be stronger.

You won't get a lock on a boxer. Throws are hard too, because it's hard to get any kind of arm wrap on a boxer or to secure his head. Sweeps and reaps work better, but that trained boxers can work you over very badly at extreme close range.

Make them play your game, whatever it is. If they don't understand it, all the better.

This is very true. I play chess, and I can always get them because they're punchy AND they can't pick up the pieces with their gloves on.



Again: see San Shou Guru for the correct answer.

[Yum Cha]

Woah! I got a double mention, that's so special....

Anyway, how about a reality check? I made the assumption the poster, the one asking for advice, was at the novice end, sparring a boxer of similar qualifications.

Some of you guys reckon he's fighting a reinvigorated fusion of Tyson and Ali.

And the best advice offered was, "forget your kung fu and become a boxer?"

Hey, big news flash, its not all about you.

[SanShou Guru]

It is not about me but my advice is based on a massive amount of expereince.

Your root comment was comical, you basically said boxers have no root so they cannot generate much power. Maybe not what you meant but in anycase way off the mark. The second one about making them fight your game is sound if you can do it.

And it is not forget your art and become a boxer but adapt to reality. A standard boxing guard is very effective for both offence and defence. All traditional defensive stances I have seen are no where close to as effective in the ring. On the steet it matters less because most people sukk at fighting.

[Yum Cha]

San Shou Guru,
Firstly, congratulations on your experience level, it obviously means a lot to you.

In my 35 years of training, I've picked up a couple of tricks too, hard as it may be to believe, Mr. "Guru".

Before you carry on any further about what you THINK I said, perhaps you should read my original post again, where the only thing I said directly about boxers was to respect their skills.

A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit.

Tangle the feet, disrupt the rhythm, take him out of his comfort zone and into yours.

No easy solution, just another tactic to employ as you experiment. Boxers have a great game, don't disrespect it.

[neilhytholt]

Dayum, it's only May, and we already have the Mostest Stupid Post of the Year!

Pssst, Neil, those weren't boxers: stop beating retards! It's not nice!

No, actually they were boxers. Boxers think they're so great, but the reason they're so great is they have good conditioning and actually get out there and fight with each other. Their techniques are basic at best.

But thanks for your vote of confidence!

[SanShou Guru]

Yum Cha,

You are right I do not know how I could have read:

"A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit."

as you saying boxers have a poor root. Some do have a poor root as do many (most in the beginning) CMA. Yes me experience is important to me as your 35 years is to you since that is what we base our comments on. The quality of root has little to do with the "bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes" but where his root is when contact is made. "Light as a feather when you move, 1000 lbs when you clash" is how we teach. If you only have a solid root then you can be picked apart at range by a fast fighter. If you are only light then you will get tossed around. When we get guys who are too light we make them take Tai Chi to get more grounded. When we have someone with too much root we make them jump rope and dance. Balance is everything because you need both. But you know this already.

[Mr Punch]

Woah! I got a double mention, that's so special...

The first one I was saying in my inimitably subtle way, that I disagreed with you. Often I think I agree with you, in this case I think you have gone for one of the biggest and most ignorant cliches in the kung fu book about boxers, and I was surprised to hear it from you. The second time I just saw an opportunity for a cheap gag Sorry!

Anyway, how about a reality check? I made the assumption the poster, the one asking for advice, was at the novice end, sparring a boxer of similar qualifications.

Some of you guys reckon he's fighting a reinvigorated fusion of Tyson and Ali.

No, but I do reckon that after three months of none-too-dedicated but hard boxing training I had had it beaten into me when to float and when to root... and I reckong I was slow! Some of my bros worked it out a lot quicker: after literally a couple of weeks.

You don't need to be Tyson or Ali to work out the footwork and rooting in boxing: it's real beginners' stuff.

And the best advice offered was, "forget your kung fu and become a boxer?"

Nobody said that. If you read SSG's post he says, learn boxing, and then take it back and sharpen up your kung fu. I had exactly the same experience. Within six months or less of boxing I ironed out a lot of practical problems with the legendary leaden and crap wing chun footwork. How? By boxing? No, just because the boxing helped me to realise a couple of things I had missed and my sifu in his long experience of only kung fu had missed and many many other people I've trained with who do all kinds of TCMA had missed; but were still part of that TCMA. Boxing helped it to come alive.

Hey, big news flash, its not all about you.

I've no idea what this is supposed to mean.


Neil, thanks very much for taking it in good humour!
My statement probably comes from my own lack of practical knowledge of WAve Hands In Clouds... from what I remember it would have definitely bought me SSG's description of the result! The reason I come to this conclusion is, in the (Yang) Tai chi I learned Wave Hands was very square on to the opponent with both hands committed to some parrying/deflecting action at the same time, which would indeed get you eating most boxers' crosses.

Of course boxing is basic: it follows KISS, and that's why it's so effective (tho for the record, none of the boxers I met seem to have the ego problem that the ones you met seem to have had).

The main things I take issue with in your assessment were:

1) 'Wait'. DON'T WAIT for a boxer. Dictate the pace, take his space.

2) 'Parry their punches'. Personally I don't believe with any good fast puncher in any system that you will 'parry'/deflect/block more than one of their punches most of the time. Some very talented individuals I've seen can: I'm not one of them after 18 years of training. Usually you get one chance: eg block then strike back / slip and counterpunch / parry then straight... etc. If you try you'll be chasing arms and eating knuckle sandwiches. Plus again, you'll be reacting rather than being proactive.

3) 'Just floor them with a straight punch to the face'. Daym, that's simple. If only all other boxers knew that, then maybe more than 50% of boxers would win their matches... If I'd thought of that when I was a younger man, I could have been a champion!

4) 'if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch': again the theory being that you can pick and choose. IME it usually goes usually too fast. Plus I want to be working my reflex actions not having to think about what to use. Maybe I'm punchy but my thinking's just too slow for most fights!

[Yum Cha]

Guru,
How could anybody disagree with your articulation of the essential skill of boxing footwork. I much prefer "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee", but "Light as a feather when you move, 1000 lbs when you clash" is groovy too. May I use it?

Of course, the same would apply to many styles with mobility. I still love watching old vids of Ali in his heyday, uncatchable, yet flat footed for the split second when he attacked. Falling away with awkward counterpunching that was effective nevertheless for that single split second when needed. My favorite master, by far.

Yes, I can understand your interpretation that I was talking about boxers, however many kick-boxers bounce and bound about, and many boxers shuffle solidly and close in on you behind a brick wall defense. The point is, IF they display a poor root, exploit it.

Alternatively, lead them into temptation, and deliver them some evil....

I have never fought two fighters that were the same. I suggest that there are no keys to defeating a given fighter that are the same, a few tricks work on many, but there are always exceptions. For the sake of the thread, I think its fair to say we're not all that far apart.

Mat,
I love cheap gags, speaking of which, how's your MAMA!

Seriously, know your enemy and you'll know yourself. I agree you need to understand the way a boxer fights, but you also need to understand that its his game, not yours, unless of course, you want to become a boxer instead of the Traditional stylist.

My personal issue is with people who think traditional arts are useless because they get beaten in the ring. And the proof is that when they start kickboxing, they don't get beaten in the ring. The ring is not the final measure, fun and challenging that it may be. It comes down to rules, practice and experience. OH! and lets not forget fittness and age, just to sort out the men from the boys...

Having been there and done that myself, my personal mission is to try to remind the traditionalists that there are skills that work, traditionally, but they don't come overnight, and they don't come without practice and failure, like so many things in the world. Many traditional stylists quit before they reach the ability, and some never get it, even though they teach, so there is a lot of "crippled children" out there, we've seen them all before. Kung fu forms, kick-boxing in the ring. Yawn. But perserverence, practice and a good master can give you a different outcome. They don't look the same in books or videos as they do in successful application, for sure.

I've been told to watch that new movie with Viggo Mortessen (sp?) (Aragorn from LOTR) about extreme violence, or something like that, because it features real, practical, kill the "MF" quickly fighting. Anybody seen it? How do they fight? Is it interesting, does it look practical, or is it staged stuff that could never really be?

Anybody ever met a Mossad agent, and gone over the type of fighting they are taught? I suspect its stuff like that.

Its the difference between a battle of attrition with clubs, and a sword fight. That is a principle lost on too many people.

nuff said?

Cheers