Taiji Self-Study

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi pudaoking,

Your points are well made and I cannot find fault with any of them. They are reasonable and will “mostly” be found to be true in actual experience.

The only difference of opinion is I don’t believe it will do any long term damage to study on ones own and I believe it could actually be of benefit in some ways.

I do agree that ones students can be a good reflection on the instructor’s ability, however, if one is a beginner he does not have the expertise to judge based upon observing students or instructors since he cannot judge if what he is seeing is skillful or not. Something may appear impressive that in reality is nothing special and something that appears nothing special could be a display of advanced skill. Since a beginner has no experience to draw from to guide his judgments observing the students won't tell him much.

I too appreciate your comments and look forward to reading more of your posts.

[yenhoi]

http://www.emptyflower.com/

http://www.shenwu.com/

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/ntes.htm

[Ray Pina]

In all honesty we can ask ourselves, even with those who have studied years with a "qualified" teacher, have gone to seminars, have all the books and tapes .... who has good Taiji? And by asking who has good Taiji, I mean, who can put their money where their mouth is?

You'll be hard to find a system with more people with something to say with so few actually willing to do. The way most people view Taiji (it's "softness) gives them a way out of combat, saying that's not what it's used for. But in that response shows the lack of knowledge already. Taiji certainly has its hardness, it's damming power. It has both.

Honestly, in NYC area I know Novell Bell always seems willing to fight and credits taiji as a source of his material and Max and Tiffany Chan and myself compete regularly. That's 4 people in an area of I would guess thousands of taiji practioners. With numbers like that, something is wrong.

Now, I understand not everyone is looking for combat. But taiji is a fighting system. If you don't have that, you don't have taiji. It's not something you can gain by doing form in the air. You can develop attributes and skill that way, but to LEARN taiji, you must USE taiji.

And I'm as guilty as any, because I see now there aren't degrees of knowing. You either have it, or not. I want it, so I train and test and play with it and look at it from here and look at it from there. But I don't have Taiji. I don't have Ba Gua or Hsing-I. I have certain attributes from them that help me learn E-Chuan. But it's like building a car frame, and an engine, and the tires. My car is not complete .... so what do I have?

Right now I'm getting by with a Ford Taurus. It runs well and gets me around, but I want a nice jet black Ferrarri.

[dleungnyc]

Its interesting, correct me if I am wrong or mis-interpreted someone's post.

Just about everyone here that's studying with a teacher advised against self study for the beginners, mainly for the following reasons. Unseen technqiues that are not shown in books/video, picking up bad habits etc.

Those that want to self study as a beginner without any formal instructions, insisted that it can be done from a book/video?

Am I missing something here?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dleungnyc,

I can’t speak for anyone else here, buuuuuut,


I have trained in the MA for 32 years. I have been teaching intermittently for 29 years. I received my blackbelt 27 years ago after an exam that included a 25 page minimum written test, an oral exam and a physical exam that took 7 ½ hrs wherein I lost 15 pounds.

In the intervening time I have trained formally in about 10-12 or so other arts including Tai Chi, (the training was approx 25 years ago) about 6 arts or so formally and another 6 or so other arts informally. By nature I have a questioning and iconoclastic frame of mind. Just that fact someone says it can’t be done inspires me to demonstrate it CAN be done.

Naysayers are a dime a dozen, but they only have to be proven wrong once to demonstrate their view is incorrect.

[dleungnyc]

Scott, I understand what you are trying to say, maybe I worded my post incorrectly. Let me try again.

Maybe I should had asked those that are planning to self-teach/train in Tai chi. What is their definition of Tai Chi? Or what they really think Tai Chi is? If one think just learning the forms from a book or video, do they really qualify to say that they know Tai Chi now?

What if those of us here that are studying with a qualified teacher(at least by our individual standards) says that learning the forms without learning the basic 13 postures(8 powers and 5 element steps) is just a waste of time?

What if one self taught/train tai chi and think they are done now. Will they look up a qualified teacher in the future? Will they know what a qualified teacher is anymore because of their 'interpretation' of what tai chi is? If one do manage to find a qualified teacher and willing to 'retrain' again, how easy or hard would it be for them to overcome their muslce memory of their self training?

I do hope you find my questions are valid.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dleungnyc,

I think you are asking some very good questions!

First I think we should make a distinction between what commonly occurs, what is likely to occur, what is plausible and what is possible.

From the perspective of what commonly occurs, what is likely to occur, and what is plausible it seems clear that one would find the most benefit from having an instructor.

If we consider what is possible however, we reach a grayer area, since what is possible is pretty much an unknown for most of us on this particular topic. Within the context of this discussion we have a person with some MA experience (so he is not a complete novice) who is interested in learning Tai Chi, but finds formal instruction at present either unavailable or inconvenient.

The question then arises, would there be any benefit for him to begin his studies learning from videos? As a result of this question we have basically two views, one says yes, the other says no.

We must admit that under ideal conditions a qualified instructor will be the most beneficial avenue to take. No informed person would claim a qualified instructor is not a benefit. However, this is not really the question posed. The question is, will learning from a video be a benefit absent any formal instruction from a qualified teacher?

The problem with this question is that the answer is in the eye of the beholder. In truth no one knows whether it would benefit RenXu or not. We are all speculating based upon our personal experiences and perspective.

RenXu is an individual that none of us know. We do not know his personal insight, intelligence, motivation, ability or experiences. We cannot be a fair judge of his ability to gain benefit from independent study. So while most here appear to choose to err on the side of caution, which in this circumstance relegates their assessment of RenXu to being incapable of learning on his own, my view is more of a positive outlook, more encouraging. Rather than relegate RenXu automatically to the classification of the general public which is incompetent to learn on their own, I accept the possibility he may be an exceptional person and may be able to learn something of benefit on his own. Within the context of his question it seems that recommendations to seek qualified instruction is wise, however to suggest that he would gain no useful benefit from independent study IMHO is overstepping and an inherently negative perspective. It basically assumes RenXu is like “us” and cannot do it! It comes from the limited view that, “Because I can't do it and I don’t know anyone who can or has done it, no one can do it!” This is a risky assumption IMHO! The Truth is we have no idea whether it will be of benefit or not for RenXu even if we just assume the odds are not in favor of a benefit occurring.

We must try to remember that human behavior and abilities tends to fall within the traditional bell curve. While approximately 80% of the public will fall within the middle portion there are a number of individuals that will be above and below the mean. Whereas most appear to assume the middle to lower end for RenXu I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and presume the possibility he could be towards the upper end, in which case he would find benefit. At any rate there is no way to know until he tries!

In regards to muscle memory, I have found that whenever I begin to train in a different art I must train my body to function from slightly differently to very differently depending upon the art. Because of my many years experience however, I am able to adapt to the new method of moving MORE easily not LESS easily. This is due to the basic physical coordination and body awareness I have developed over years of training. Therefore, I do not agree with the view that says learning poor habits will become a larger problem in the future than if one learned nothing at all. The ability to perform an action with 50%-80% accuracy is still better than not being able to perform the action at all. Once an individual has learned basic coordination and body awareness the ability to adapt to new or improved application of skills is easier, not harder to do.

If RenXu decides to find an instructor in the future or not is really no ones business. It is his desire and intentions that motivate his actions and decide his purpose and goals. If he chooses to find an instructor that is fine; if he has gained enough information through videos to fulfill his purpose that is for him to decide, not us. If he learns from a video and thinks he has gained all the ability and insight he needs and begins to teach, then the proof will be in the pudding. He will eventually be found out by those in the know if his knowledge and ability are inadequate. If he is found to have inadequate skill and insight then those who may be taken in by him are no different than from any other person learning from someone who is half-a$$ed. Keep in mind that in many cases half-a$$ed is in the eye of the beholder too! Sincere and devoted searchers for the truth will learn beyond what he has taught them, those who don’t are not that avid in their desire to learn anyway and there is no real significant harm done. Tai Chi as a new age exercise is different than Tai Chi as an expression of Tao in motion and as a self-defense method.

My personal view of Tai Chi is that the heart of the art is found in the principles, not in the movements. The movements are merely the vehicle used to learn, apply and internalize the principles. It is the attitude one develops and the principles they apply that make someone an adherent of Tai Chi. When an individual has internalized the principles they may take any form or movement from any MA art or any other field of endeavor and apply the principles of Tai Chi and it becomes an expression of Tai Chi. At the most fundamental level one may practice Tai Chi by applying Tai Chi principles to ANY activity, from calligraphy, to tea ceremony, to sewing, to pottery, to butchery, to tying ones shoes, etc. If an individual is comprehensively and effective applying Tai Chi principles then even what appears to be poor technique becomes proper technique by mere default.

[dleungnyc]

Scott, this is just my opinion. If one wants to self/study/train in internal martial arts, not just Tai Chi, but Xing yi and Bagua for example. I don't want to say its impossible, but I would suggest its very difficult to do it correctly.

First, IMHO, one needs to find out the distinction of internal martial arts. What makes them different? What differntiate them from 'external' martial arts. In other words, what make tham ticks. So far, I haven't read any books or seen any video that goes into details of this area. I am not saying there aren't any out there, since more are getting published every day.

In Tai chi, IMHO, the heart and soul of the system is in the 13 postuers(sp?). Without having a good understanding of the 13 postuers, learning the form is again, IMHO, waste of time. I have seen schools that teachs forms to brand new beginners, without teaching the 13 postuers. Not to sound harsh, but they all move like mannequins, with stiff arms, legs and joints. Forget the martial aspect, where's the health benefits? Again, IMHO, those people are better off taking an aerobic class, which would help their blood circulation better.

Just to sum it up, if I have to give an opinion of self teaching tai chi(or any other internal martial arts) from a book or video. Is akin to taking a native from the Amazon jungle( or any person from any primitive regions), show them a running car and ask them to reverse engineer and build one. They might get the body and the wheels correct, but will they be able to build the engine if they don't know what it is?

[RonH]

Kickboxing. Well, let's start with that. My knowledge of the intricacies of the art are limited, but there are a few things that are going in your favor with knowing this before starting Tai Chi Quan. First, there's the boxing-ness of the art. While you may not be on you toes a lot during form practice in Tai Chi, there are a few times when you will be on your toes. There are also times that you'll discover over time where you will rock back and forth on your feet (moving from standing on your heels to standing on your toes and then, back to your heels, especially during a fight) to get greater power in your movements. There's also the fact that punches and kicks are still punches and kicks across martial arts. When I started Tai Chi, I started with the Yang short form and in 2 spots, the top of the pelvis is shifted either forward or backward during a front kick, depending on the section you are at. You would know better than me, if that is covered in kickboxing, but if it is, that is one of those little details that you'd already have covered.

Another thing I've noticed a lot of martial artists and boxers do, especially in Ultimate Fighting and it sticks out like a soar thumb everytime. It's something that happens 99.99 ad infinitum % of the time I see a match up. Many fighters stick their elbows out., Like in basketball, the elbow shouldn't stick out when you do straight jabs. The other guy can see what you're gonna do and can block it easily. The same goes for kicks. They'll want to do a frontal kick and it just swings out before coming back in. When you wanna sweep a leg or arm, that's fine, but not always. I don't know how much your elbow sticks out, but the keeping it in for Tai Chi is good. The degree you'd have to shift your arm from having your hands in front of your face to actually being parallel with the face to minimize how far it's out is not that much I've seen when fighters do a straight punch and twist their upper bodies to the side and your elbow is gonna stick out a little because you're reducing the width of your upper body that's being seen, but I've seen people twist their upper bodies and still stick their elbow out, almost like they were gonna hit somebody beside them with an elbow. The tacticle value of actually using arms and legs that swing out don't seem that advantageous overall to me.

Again, I don't know how you perform kickboxing, but these are a couple things that are to be careful of, even when you're starting a new system. Your body has to adjust to the different pace/body directions and one or another of these can crop up.

There's also something else that should be kept in mind when doing Tai Chi. Your body knows what to do and how to move. Take a look at the newborn baby. Seriously. Physiologically, there are some hardened bones, but there are also some soft tissues that's gonna turn into hardened tissue, while others stay soft. As the babe grows and it's starting to learn how to move, you see if flop around. That's what Tai Chi takes advantage of. The body's natural floppiness. When we get older, we often don't try to retain the floppiness, so our muscle and connective tissue loose their floppiness by tightening up and we loose the full possible range that we are built with. During your stint learning kickboxing, you must have done arm and leg stretches and found out that it's these tissues that are the real limiter of our range of movement (aside from certain structure limitation of bones and such). And you found the more you stretched, the greater your range was. When you see these kids that have been trained in MA since they were like 3 and can do flips and are like little Spider-Men, they kept much of their range of motion of very tiny children and will keep it, if they keep up with the stretches (though I'm not one to start training kids so young).

Your body knows what it should do and its limitations. When we grow up and are taught to walk, it helps up to develop and move differently, but we often forget that we have all this other range of movements and start to loose it over time, a lot of the time fogetting we had the range before. The thing to remember is that while Tai Chi is able to adapt to any variety of limitations people have when they first start out with it, their bodies will adapt to Tai Chi and you become more like what Tai Chi says your range should be, which is the range your body structure says you can have. The movements's loosening you up will make your body want to have that range you had when you were a babe and will adapt to that way more and more until you reach the limit your underlying structure dictates or you die, which ever comes first.

But, because your body knows what it wants and will adapt to get it, you need to increase your perception of the signals that your body sends to your brain. You said that you've had other fighting experience besides kickboxing, so you may have had some training in this. The greater you can increase you intutition, the better, so, if you wanted to study Tai Chi alone or not, I would also suggest that you also study Kundalini Yoga. There's a website online (++++kundaliniyoga.org/classes.html) that's good.

[RonH]

There are some people that say that doing kundalini exercises can be bad, if you don't have much experience, I've never viewed it to be that dangerous. Of course, I had been doing energy work for years before I started kundalini, but this is where you should listen to your instincts. But, my instincts say you specifically should be fine, as long as you're careful and listen to your instincts. I push myself, like someone would do with doing a few more reps in the gym, but there's still some listening I do. There are days where I don't want to do any training, so I don't or I'll just do it for about 15 seconds and then, stop. But, pushing may not be what's good for you. Again, instincts.

How much of a details person you are will also be a factor in how well you do on your own. When I had started Tai Chi, my gifted intelligence actually had presented itself fully until about the last year of college (which was about 3 years before I started Tai Chi), which is just so wrong and it wasn't the kind where you can learn all of one subject quickly. It was where you learn smaller amounts of dozens of different subjects in an extremly short amount of time. Also, I had always been very intuitive since I was a newborn. Every day of class, my profe'd show me another move and I'd be right there asking everything from foot placement to hip twists/rotation and when he answered, I'd shoot off 6 other questions for each thing he said and I just sky rocketed from it. Eventually, every advancement my instincts told me was really the next step in my form's progression. It got to the point where I could very easily mooch off of any system and other things, like gymnastics, ice skating, etc. that I stopped going to classes.

Not just because of the price and time, but because the continued evidence that my acceleration was actually being slowed down by having to go to class. I had reached a high level of "intermediate" skill level in about 6 months and I wanted more. I was a machine. The body knows where it needs to get to and going to classes made me feel like I was being stifled, almost like a physical pain. It was weird. My instructor was good. My instincts told me from the beginning that he was alright, but looking back, the dude was awesome, but it just wasn't for me anymore.

Going to one-on-one classes gives you access to information that you wouldn't have to worry about developing becuase it has been developed and they know it, but while you do adapt to Tai Chi, you'll still get a personalized form, as I'd imagine it would be with kickboxing. The guy was good in being careful, but I wanted more and wanted to set my own timetable for learning because I knew my instincts and what I could do better than him. I understand him wanting to be careful because of the responsibility issue, but I still had a better idea of what I could handle.

So, I went off on my own and it's lead to lots of other things that showed much more than what I would have learned from just being in the class. I'm also strongly independent and have a tailblazer personailty and bucking the system as much as a I can to make it as much a personlized thing is where my mind is most comfortable.

What you can also do is learn about how other styles that can be incorporated into Tai Chi. Since punches and kicks are still punches and kicks, the differences between the arts is more philosophical. Akido is a good choice. Much of the experience you learn from people on how to do something can very easily be written down into a book an inch or two thick (at least, the wisdom that can be put into words), so learning forms that specialize more towards something else and taking all that information and putting it together for what works for you is the best practice. There are many books out there that have the wisdom, which can be figured out by reading reviews or going to book stores that let you read them right there. Trusting your instincts on the books you choose is a good way to develop your instincts. You'll stumble here and there with your instincts, but they'll be more reliable later.

There are other forms, such as Shaolin Kempo Karate that cover a wide range of things, but a mixture of learning the wisdom of specilized and complex forms gives you a good batch to mix and match from. Fred Villari's school does offer a video course that you learn from and then, tape yourself and send it in for grading and critique. But, if you choose this or any other mixed martial art, studying specialized forms that focus on a smaller range of things, lets you pick up on things from people that focus more on this and when you collect and mix and match what you've gotten, you can get something that works better for you.

And, there is a very good chance that you will come up with something that no one else came up with. Those I'd say you should write down/record on video/photos and study them. If you can expand on them, do it. You might even come up with your own specialized version of something that'll take the MA community by storm. Then, comes endorsements, groupies, fame...if that's what you want, which isn't a bad thing. Positive energy is contagious.