Taiji Self-Study

[RenXu]

Hello! I wanted to ask an opinion question; I've been doing Thai kickboxing for over ten years and now I'm about 29 years old and looking to do something just for the art of it all versus competition.

I'm going to be starting a new job as well so time is a bit tight (plus looking to marry in about a year) so I thought maybe I'd do some self-study of Taiji. I think that with my fighting background, it might be possible and then I would maybe find a teacher in a few years.

So my question(s) are:

a) What are your thoughts on self-study?
b) What do you think would be the best course for self-study (if any).
c) Is this a good idea? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESE%3AIT&rd=1
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/ohl39

I've heard of Earle Montaigue but opinions are all over the map. I've never heard of the other two guys.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

RX

[neilhytholt]

Hello! I wanted to ask an opinion question; I've been doing Thai kickboxing for over ten years and now I'm about 29 years old and looking to do something just for the art of it all versus competition.

I'm going to be starting a new job as well so time is a bit tight (plus looking to marry in about a year) so I thought maybe I'd do some self-study of Taiji. I think that with my fighting background, it might be possible and then I would maybe find a teacher in a few years.

So my question(s) are:

a) What are your thoughts on self-study?
b) What do you think would be the best course for self-study (if any).
c) Is this a good idea? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESE%3AIT&rd=1
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/ohl39

I've heard of Earle Montaigue but opinions are all over the map. I've never heard of the other two guys.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

RX

IMHO you don't want to self-study any martial art. Especially the forms, because without somebody correcting you on your form, you could be doing really bad things and not realize it.

Once you have a solid base, then maybe you can work on applications off of video or something, but I wouldn't really recommend that either since without a partner or a teacher correcting your applications, you can do things that don't work that well.

It seems like you should just use videos to gauge somebody's skill or decide if this is something you want to do or not, but not to actually learn off of.

Also, will you really have the discipline to learn off of video?

[Shooter]

a) What are your thoughts on self-study?

Great! As long as you don't get into anything too stylized.

b) What do you think would be the best course for self-study (if any)

Solo drills that impart the movement and energy-management skills that taijiquan is based on. 9 Temple Exercises would be good for you.

I would think that those tapes you linked to are a bad idea. Too stylized to really get you into the material on a personal level.

[neilhytholt]

Shooter, what tapes then would you recommend that aren't too stylized? I didn't think there were any good taiji tapes out there.

[Shooter]

I wouldn't recommend any tapes.

The stuff I'm talking about is vailable online for free

[RenXu]

Thanks for the advice - I think I would be pretty dedicated to a self-study. I'm of the credo that most improvement happens on one's own. Plus every martial art translates differently to different people's bodies.

I'm working toward softening my own hard-style with something like the Taiji form and then perhaps correcting it with a trained teacher once I think I have a good grounding in it.

As long as these tapes aren't horrible, I think they'll be good enough.

Where can I find quality FREE videos like the one's you mentioned?

Ren

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'm sorry but how do you come to the conclusion that sefy study helps improvements????
Improvements come from correct practice, and correct practice comes from solid teachings, and for that you definitely need a teacher who knows what there are teaching.

I would great warn you against self study, as it's next to futile in Taiji terms.
Just because you do one martial art doesn't mean that you can jump into another and expect a certaion portion of it to directly translate!


I don't understand this every martial art translates differently to different people's bodies bit! That doesn't really make too much sense and you'll find that that isn't the case with Taiji.
Seriously it's not a good idea at all to try and learn Taiji from a video or a book. There is only one single safe, and guaranteed way to get a good uderstanding without miscomprehnsion and that is through a good fully trained teacher.
In taiji there's no benefits at all for cutting corners. Please don't think you will be able to learn a little bit about Taiji in an untutored way.
It's said that from step one, if you are out by an inch at the start of the journey then not long into the Taiji journey you will soon be out by a mile.

By all means you can try and cpy the shapes of postures in the form from video's but don't fool yourself into believing that that means you are learning Taiji.
Trully you nned a teacher to learn it.

Sorry for the heated response, but it's the truth. Self study works if you have a good 10 years solid pupil to teacher method of learning, it is so needed at the beginning not spend a year with tapes and books and then find a teacher, that way you will only be very disappointed.

Sorry.

[qiphlow]

i fully agree with repulsive monkey--there is ALOT of taiji that cannot be learned thru a video. at best, you can copy the movements, but then you are just doing an exercise that looks like taiji. better to wait until you have time to attend classes with a proper teacher.

[Scott R. Brown]

I disagree that one cannot learn on their own. All MA came from somewhere and someone had to devise each one in the first place. There is not an endless regression of teachers. At some point in the mists of time a person or group of people came up with the principles of Tai Chi and applied them. This occurred with all the MA’s. The process of discovery included a period of trial and error wherein movements and principles were modified, improved, discarded and added. What allowed the originators and modifiers to create and modify was insight and study into the principles and applications of the movements in conjunction with trial and error and real world application. If one studies and considers deeply what they are learning and consults references such as videos, books and the opinions of others they will gain benefit from their study. Learning something is better than learning nothing.

Miyamoto Musashi, one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Japan, had no formal instruction. He was laughed at by his opponent prior to his first duel at aged 13, a man he soon killed! It may be argued that originators and modifiers were exceptional individuals. Well, who is to say you are not an exceptional individual? Exceptional individuals forge their own path motivated by a drive to know and understand and to do it their own way! The limitations we have are the limitations we choose to accept. Do not let others argue for your own limitations. Their limitations are their own to overcome do not accept their burden as your own! You are not teaching yourself skydiving here. You will not kill yourself or endanger your safety by learning Tai Chi from a video!

It cannot be denied that having an instructor can be beneficial and may perhaps be preferable, but one must also have a GOOD and COMPETENT instructor. Novices are in no position to determine who is a good and competent instructor. It may take years to discover one is learning from an inadequate instructor. Anyone studying under an inadequate instructor will learn poor and inadequate skills and principles which they will one day need to unlearn. How is this different than learning inadequately from a video? There is no difference! Inadequate is inadequate! Many times inadequate is in the eye of the beholder anyway!

Serious study of MA is a life time process. Masters continue to gain insights as they teach and study. It may be argued that inadequate instruction is worse than no instruction. But since the student is in no position to perceive inadequate instruction he has no idea if he is learning inadequate principles and skills in the first place. If he is, he must unlearn those poor skills! Since inadequate is in the eye of the beholder it is best to start somewhere and learn as you go while gaining knowledge from alternate sources and personal study.

So to the argument that you may learn bad habits, I would reply: all new students have bad habits they must overcome. Long time practitioners have bad habits they must overcome. Masters have bad habits they must overcome. No one is perfect. Improvement is constant. Learn to discern your own inadequacies through self observation, study and insight. How do you think Masters discover their own short comings? They figure it out for themselves!

To insist that the only way to learn is from an instructor is an overused and blindly repeated principle passed on from instructor to student without any real questioning of its validity. While it may be well meaning is not an absolute!

Do not choose videos from only one source, use a variety. Lean to observe the movements closely. Think about what you are learning. Teach yourself to observe your own movements and introspect into your mind to gain insight into the movements and principles. This is how the originators made their discoveries. Many things that are learned cannot be taught by another, they must be perceived through insight. Study books as well. I suggest “Tai Chi Classics” translated by Waysun Liao and there are many other valuable sources. Yang Jwing Ming is a good source for many topics.

Forge your own path, learn what is of interest to you and do not allow naysayers to negatively influence you. If and when you are able to, or become so inclined, study from an instructor. When you do empty your cup and learn that instructor’s method. Then integrate what you have learned from the instructor into your own knowledge base.

Good Luck!

[imperialtaichi]

My biggest concerns would be developing bad habbits.

Any Tom ****s and Harries can learn the movements from video. But what if you missed something and picked up some bad habbits?

Plus, some of the bad habits could be internal and not visible even if you are really good at copying the movements.

Once you develope the bad habits, it could take years to undo.

So if you just want to do some Tai Chi for relaxation, just buy yourself a book or some videos. But if you want to be good at it you'll have to find a good teacher.

Cheers,
John

[Hunt]

I practice alot on my own..I have access to my teacher about every other sunday..and maybe once a week I get together with some other chen people and we study the form (Lao Jia Yilu) together....But usually I only have about an hour in the morning to practice before I go to work....I can't stress the importance of a teacher or even practicing with piers.... My teacher has helped me catch a number of unconscience mistakes I was adding to the form, as well as elaborating on application and theory....

How far do you think your skills as a kickboxer would have progressed if you never recieved any hands on instruction.

I'm of the opinion that there are essential elements in any MA that can not be learned via a video, book..etc....They can be a useful supplement, but never a replacement for an actual instructer

[RenXu]

All;

Firstly, I truly appreciate the time that everyone has taken to answer my question. I do think that self-study if possible if one has a good grounding in other arts. I've been doing kickboxing for over ten years and martial arts in general for close to 15. Still, I will humbly take all your points into account as this is all new to me.

As for the body mechanics bit, at the end of the day, we all have two arms and two legs so differences in techniques ultimately (IMHO) return to the weight, health, height, tenacity, natural ability, etc of the student.

In any case, I do think that tapes are fine for some self-study (I myself have a handful already for my kickboxing and there's at least a few things I learned from them). My question was (and is) pertains to the quality of the people mentioned in the tapes - I think the self-study portion has been answered throughly.

RX

[RenXu]

One more thing - Scott Brown, you mentioned that Dr. Yang was good. Who else would you recommend? Did any of the names in that ebay thing jump out at you?

RX

[dleungnyc]

RX, not to discourage but just a FYI.

I used to think that I could learn the internal martial arts thru books/video etc. But after finally having time to attend a real class with a qualified teacher. I was amazed that the amount of 'subtle' movements that was missing from all the books/video that I have seen. I am not claiming to have read/seen every internal martial arts books/videos in existence, but, I have yet to see one that explains fully what exactly involves in each movement.

[qiphlow]

regarding dleungnyc's post above:
exactly! you can't readily see the internal part of taiji on a video, nor can you readily know it from a book, especially without having done any taiji before. i think that books and videos are a great supplement to teacher training, but they should not be a substitute for teacher training. when i started on my taiji journey, i had bad habits, but they were corrected by my instructors before they became a big problem. also, you can't ask questions of a book or a video (and when learning taiji, you will have questions...).

as to the ebay items: dr yang's book is good. the screenshots of the tapes look like the tapes are the usual new-age taiji stuff--i don't know about the combat taiji tapes( although a good instructor will show you combat applicatins within the form). the price is good for all the items. please note that the seller used these items as a reference to supplement what he learned from his teacher!

if you want some other good videos or books, you could pick up a copy of tai chi magazine, the back pages are filled with all kinds of internal martial art books and videos.