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In the absence of a qualified teacher a video is the next best thing. But tai chi chuan is very intricate.
Maybe you could hook up with an instructor once or twice a month just to get some real instruction and feedback. The you could train on your own using a video for reference the other times.
Also, please call it Tai Chi Chuan or Taijiquan. After all, Grand Ultimate is nothing with out the Fist.
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Hi RenXu,
I have not formally trained in Tai Chi (Chuan) for over 25 years so I cannot tell you who has the best tapes. I do continue to observe, read about, and experiment with Tai Chi (Chuan
I myself am planning on acquiring a collection of Tai Chi (Chuan
Try looking at: www.taichidepot.com Pick something and experiment with it. If you like it continue, if you don’t, move on to something else. A wrong step is only a wrong step if you fail to learn something from it. Even if you learned you don’t like it, it is still a valuable lesson which you will use as a reference when evaluating future materials.
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Ok, that was funny. Point taken.
Check out my wooden dummy website: http://www.woodendummyco.com/
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Hey everyone - thanks again. I think I'm going do some self-study BUT I'll look for a good teacher when I get a chance. The problem is that in between my new job (which changes daily as I assess insurance claims so I never know where I am M-F) and my fiancee, it's a rare thing when I get some time to myself.
I think it would be for my stress level and give me a good taste to decide if I should pursuit it seriously.
This is really a great community!
RX
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If this is your goal maybe what you need is some tapes on Yoga. In my experience Taiji is a hard style.Originally Posted by RenXu
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I think the best way to reduce your stress level would be took stop living such a stressful life.
I also think that trying to learn tai chi from video will just add more stress to your life. It is not easy.
I think you would be just as well of to train in the kick boxing since you already know it. You could aslo take the yoga suggestion or some type of meditation since you could realistically "follow" a tape on these things.
Not trying to be negative just trying to save you some time.
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Just do the kickboxing really slow. That's all Yang Tai Ji is, is some longfist done really slow, right?
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No, the kickboxing would still be a great work out and he wouldnt have to waste time trying to learn from a tape. A good cardio workout is also a great stress reliever.....so
I would not consider tai chi fighiting techniques being applied the same way as long fist. Very up close and personal with a lot of throwing and chin na, but if people only practice the forms without application that would be what most would think. Just another long fist style.
Yeah, I know, long fist has throws also.
Thats another story for another forum.
Bagua, Xingyi, and Taiji
I understand how hard it can be trying to balance work, family, and time for yourself (Taijiquan). I would recommend finding a good Taijiquan teacher and then approach him and explain your schedule. Tell him that your schedule is too unpredictable for group classes, and that you would like to do private lessons when you can, maybe once or twice a month. Then after you start with him, you can ask him if he knows of any good videos that he'd recommend. You can then use these as memory aids to help your training in between the occasional private lesson.
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i would suggest studying with a good teacher for 3-5 years several times per week before you could "self study" tai chi chuan. just my 2 cents worth ... it is hard to unlearn bad habits and without a good teacher to smack you on the head bad habits will creep into your practice.
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The biggest problem with self study is picking up bad habits that if practice for a prolong time, will be very difficult to correct.
Just one example, in most 'external' style, to throw a punch, you have to 'push' your fist out. But in Taichi Chuan, at least the way I am taught, you 'pull' your fist out. I have yet to see this mention in any book or video. FYI.
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Quote:
"I disagree that one cannot learn on their own. All MA came from somewhere and someone had to devise each one in the first place. There is not an endless regression of teachers. At some point in the mists of time a person or group of people came up with the principles of Tai Chi and applied them. This occurred with all the MA’s. The process of discovery included a period of trial and error wherein movements and principles were modified, improved, discarded and added. What allowed the originators and modifiers to create and modify was insight and study into the principles and applications of the movements in conjunction with trial and error and real world application. If one studies and considers deeply what they are learning and consults references such as videos, books and the opinions of others they will gain benefit from their study. Learning something is better than learning nothing.
Miyamoto Musashi, one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Japan, had no formal instruction. He was laughed at by his opponent prior to his first duel at aged 13, a man he soon killed! It may be argued that originators and modifiers were exceptional individuals. Well, who is to say you are not an exceptional individual? Exceptional individuals forge their own path motivated by a drive to know and understand and to do it their own way! The limitations we have are the limitations we choose to accept. Do not let others argue for your own limitations. Their limitations are their own to overcome do not accept their burden as your own! You are not teaching yourself skydiving here. You will not kill yourself or endanger your safety by learning Tai Chi from a video!
It cannot be denied that having an instructor can be beneficial and may perhaps be preferable, but one must also have a GOOD and COMPETENT instructor. Novices are in no position to determine who is a good and competent instructor. It may take years to discover one is learning from an inadequate instructor. Anyone studying under an inadequate instructor will learn poor and inadequate skills and principles which they will one day need to unlearn. How is this different than learning inadequately from a video? There is no difference! Inadequate is inadequate! Many times inadequate is in the eye of the beholder anyway!
Serious study of MA is a life time process. Masters continue to gain insights as they teach and study. It may be argued that inadequate instruction is worse than no instruction. But since the student is in no position to perceive inadequate instruction he has no idea if he is learning inadequate principles and skills in the first place. If he is, he must unlearn those poor skills! Since inadequate is in the eye of the beholder it is best to start somewhere and learn as you go while gaining knowledge from alternate sources and personal study.
So to the argument that you may learn bad habits, I would reply: all new students have bad habits they must overcome. Long time practitioners have bad habits they must overcome. Masters have bad habits they must overcome. No one is perfect. Improvement is constant. Learn to discern your own inadequacies through self observation, study and insight. How do you think Masters discover their own short comings? They figure it out for themselves!
To insist that the only way to learn is from an instructor is an overused and blindly repeated principle passed on from instructor to student without any real questioning of its validity. While it may be well meaning is not an absolute!
Do not choose videos from only one source, use a variety. Lean to observe the movements closely. Think about what you are learning. Teach yourself to observe your own movements and introspect into your mind to gain insight into the movements and principles. This is how the originators made their discoveries. Many things that are learned cannot be taught by another, they must be perceived through insight. Study books as well. I suggest “Tai Chi Classics” translated by Waysun Liao and there are many other valuable sources. Yang Jwing Ming is a good source for many topics.
Forge your own path, learn what is of interest to you and do not allow naysayers to negatively influence you. If and when you are able to, or become so inclined, study from an instructor. When you do empty your cup and learn that instructor’s method. Then integrate what you have learned from the instructor into your own knowledge base. "
Yeah, that's a real nice speech for boosting his morale, but....... First of all, you neglect to mention that all of the masters who created their own styles, first had a firm grounding in one or more styles before they came up with their new improved style that they created to best suit themselves. Ok, yes there probably was a person or people who came up with the first chinese martial art but it took decades or more, for future generations to add and correct techniques that would evolve into the complete art that it is today. You can't just say, hey I want to invent a new martial art all by myself without any formal training, it just doesn't work, otherwise none of us would need teachers and create our own styles. Sure you could come up with tecniques that might seem plausible but it would take many, many years of trial and error and many more years of future generations enhancing it before it could be usable. Taijiquan has been around for hundreds of years in which time it has been refined and honed to a complete martial art. But the person or persons who originally created it had training in qigong and other martial art styles like long fist before creating Taijiquan. And yes there are many masters who came up with different methods or styles of Taijiquan, but each one of them studied a previous version of it. It is one thing to alter a style by improving upon its principals and theories and adding to it to suit ones needs after decades of study and practice in the art, and quite another to create a style all on one's own. Also I agree with you that you need a competent and qualified teacher, but to say well there's no way of a beginer knowing wheather or not the teacher is competent enough to teach so you have as much chance of practicing correctly or inncorrectly on your own is ridiculus. There are tons of teachers throughout the world who are qualified to teach styles like Taijiquan. All a person has to do is go on the internet and educate themselves with what teachers are well recieved by students and fellow masters, what their liniage is and who they were taught by and read their articles in magazines and books, watch their dvds, etc. To judge how good a teacher is you look at their students. If the students are able to learn efficiently and can grasp and understand the art and preform it to high standards with good moral and ethical standards, then the teacher is good. you can find out about any well known master on the web. You can even take seminars by them and judge for yourself. And by the way where did you get your information about Miyomoto Musashi? I have read many biographies of his in books and on the net, and I have never read anywhere that he was self taught. I remember reading that he did have formal training in kendo when he was young, and that later in life he invented his two sword fighting style. Last of all I want to say I have studied and practiced chinese martial arts since 1985, and by my own experiance to learn Taijiquan by books and videos is an extremely bad idea. To think one can learn that way is very unrealistic. The real art of Taijiquan is not seen it is felt. The outward appearence can be decieving as to what is really going on inside. In my opinion to learn Taijiquan by these methods is even less plausible then expecting to be a kung fu master by watching and studying a jackie chan movie. It just aint gonna happen. Without qualified instruction by a teacher face to face first, youre just wasting your time and efforts, by practicing incorrectly, and will most probably create bad habits that will be very difficult to unlearn when a real teacher becomes available in the future. Not to mention the possibility of causing your self injury either externally or internally. Just my 2 cents on the matter, if you think I am wrong on my views, I am open to recieve any of your criticism and will try my upmost to recieve them with an open mind.
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Hi, pudaoking,
I have been studying the MA since 1974. I have been teaching since 1977. I have studied formally about half a dozen arts, including Tai Chi and informally another 6 -10, I lose track. After training in the MA for so long it is no longer very mysterious to me. To me it is rather basic stuff. I understand that it isn’t that basic to beginners, but RenXu is not intending to master Tai Chi, just begin his studies independently and then find an instructor later.
I do not rule out anyone’s ability to master anything independent of instruction. I take this position because I chose not to accept the limitations imposed by society or other individuals. I am unconcerned how likely or unlikely it is that anyone may accomplish mastery of any pursuit without instruction. If the person is intelligent and motivated who am I to say what they may accomplish or not? I prefer to try not to impose my limitations on others as well as not accept the limitations of others for myself. I may believe it is unlikely RenXu will acquire any advanced skill from learning from videos or books, but neither would I state it is impossible. Who am I to limit him? Learning from videos is not actually learning without instruction anyway, it is learning without having the opportunity to be personally corrected by one more experienced that yourself. If one has gained personal insight and is able to introspect and pay attention to detail it is certainly possible, even if it is improbable, and I try not to impose that limitation on another person.
We create and/or accept our own limitations. It is clear people will argue/fight for their own limitations and seek to impose them on others. Just because someone says and believes something cannot be done does not mean it cannot be done. Even experts are frequently wrong! Everyone has an agenda and beliefs and attitudes they accept as truth. Sometimes the beliefs are based upon experience, other times they are based upon socialization or indoctrination given to us by those whom we accept as an authority. However, history has demonstrated repeatedly that the limitations accepted by individuals and societies may be transcended by those who do not accept them.
Many times what is considered adequate or expert performance of skills are in the eye of the beholder. Just because something is pretty to watch does not automatically confer expertise or adequacy of ability in a real life encounter. The impressive abilities of “Masters”, and MMA fighters, occur within a fixed context. The ring, a demonstration or the classroom context rarely applies to the real world.
To date it has been my experience that I am able to foil any attempt by anyone to perform any special feat once I understand the mechanics of the technique. This is because there is a context for everything, once you understand the context you may change the context and the technique or skill will not be effective. Think of it as changing the rules in the middle of the game. Once you understand the rules that your opponent plays by all you need do is change the rules and you increase your likelihood of victory.
All skills, including the MA, follow specific root principles. Root principles are the most important thing to learn in any field of study. Root principles are the foundation upon which the knowledge of every field of study is built. If we understand the root we will understand everything that springs from it. Most people who train in the MA do not learn the root. One may train for 50 years and never understand the root, or they may train for 5 or 10 years and grasp the deeper principles. Age and expertise are not the measure of insight; understanding and insight depend upon the individual, not time and experience.
Tai Chi is not that difficult to learn if one applies themselves to it. There is no special mystery to it. Just because it may have been difficult for you or others does not mean the limitations you have accepted need apply to others. If an individual comes to understand the root, then they may apply the principles and become proficient even if their performance of skill appears inadequate.
A recommendation by others or the success of students in competition does not guarantee the competence of an art or a teacher. Success in competition does not guarantee success in a real life encounter nor does it guarantee adequate skill! Even poor and inadequate teachers have students that are devoted to them and are willing to exaggerate for their instructor. Some students may be convinced their incompetent teacher is competent. There is no guarantee that the students are competent enough to know their teacher is competent! I have been around a large number of MAists in my life, many have considered themselves or their instructors to be knowledgeable, but to me they were half-rate. Indeed, I am sure there are some who would consider me half-rate. This merely proves my point of agendas, personal limitations and context. We all have our own!
Anyone who has trained at different schools of the same style with presumed “competent” instructors they will eventually find that even these “competent experts” may interpret and/or apply the same technique or principle differently. No single interpretation is necessarily right or wrong. The instructors merely approach the technique or principle differently because they approach the technique or principle from a different context.
I am unsure of the source for my comments about Musashi. I thought I read it in 5 Rings, but I see I was incorrect. I hope I didn’t get it from the novel that will be a bit embarrassing, OOPS! I usually try to confirm my historical statements before I make them. For now I better retract my statement. The error of my statement however does not change my opinion that an instructor is not always necessary, however as you noted I do believe an instructor is clearly helpful.
Not all masters learned from someone else because at some point there was a “First Master”. It may be deduced that this master was a progenitor of an incomplete system, but that is not known as a fact merely assumed. Even if my statement about Musashi was accurate, he would still have needed to observe others using the katana to learn and understand the basics, and this is a type of instruction. No one lives in a vacuum after all. All information comes from somewhere, if not from others then from personal experience or insight!
To get closer to my point, mastery is not a matter of physical, skill but a matter of personal intent and personal mastery. Personal mastery is accomplished through individual effort which may be guided by others, but is not dependent upon the instruction of others. In Zen it is frequently asserted that to Master oneself is to Master all things! This is illustrated by the example of Shoji! (And I do have sources for this story,
There was a Japanese Zen Master and hermit named Shoji (1642-1721). Shoji was teacher to Hakuin another well known Japanese Zen Master. On one occasion Shoji was invited to observe a training session for master swordsmen. The swordsmen voiced admiration for Shoji’s Zen, but questioned its practicality for swordsmen. Shoji invited the swordsmen to attack him and they obliged him, all attacking at once. Not one was able to strike Shoji, but he was able to rap each one at least once on the head with his fan. Amazed and humbled by this demonstration the swordsmen asked Shoji his secret. Shoji replied, “If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!!!
This is a story of an individual with no swordsmanship skill defeating accepted Masters. If it can be done once it can be done again, and this was the point I was attempting to demonstrate with the Musashi reference.
It seems to me that to assume one cannot “feel” the meaning of the Art of Tai Chi without instruction is forcing ones own limitations upon others. If one studies Tao and attempts to bring oneself into accord with the principles of Tao, then one has acquired the “feeling” of Tai Chi even if they have no knowledge of the actual movements! This was clearly demonstrated by Shoji.
I disagree with the assertion that it is a waste of time to learn on ones own or that one will learn insurmountable mistakes. Beginners have bad habits, advanced practitioners have bad habits, instructors have bad habits, and most masters have bad habits. Perfecting skill takes constant introspective observation. One of the measures of a skilled student is the ability to observe ones own performance, compare it to a presumed ideal, and then correct oneself. This is an ability that may be learned, but cannot be taught. It is a skill of the mind, not of the body.
To think anyone will ever be above the mistakes or poor habits is not realistic. This is because what is considered perfect is an arbitrary decision. As I previously pointed out, two instructors may interpret and perform the same movement differently. Who is correct and who is mistaken? Neither one is incorrect, because they each believe in their own personal insight and they each have their own context from which they justify their view. One may say then, that a mistake is merely an action we perform without intending to do so. This is an error of the mind, of awareness, not an error of skill or ability.
Thank you for your thoughtful post!
Great Googley Moogley!
Seems to me this entire thread is indicating a need for a self-study system. Sounds like a business opportunity to me. Hint-hint Kung Fu magazine people. DVD's and books aren't enough for most so maybe an interactive CD Rom on your computer. A virtual master that is interactive?
Give me immortality or give me death!
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Hi Scott, I just read your new post, and I understand better now your views and beliefs. First off I'd like to say thank you for the excellent story regarding Shoji. I enjoyed it immensely. And you did bring up an excellent point. Your also right in that RenXu is not currently looking to master Taijiquan, just to practice in it a little before finding instruction. So I guess at a beginner level it may benifit some people to study with books and videos, I just come from a background that respects peoples insights and knowledge based on their experiances in fields of interest that I study, so I can learn from their mistakes, and although I may make plenty of my own, I would at least know to avoid the ones they made. I also agree with you that who are any of us to judge what another persons limitations or capabilities are, but since you don't know for sure what RenXu's are I still believe it may be bad advice to say to him go for it when there is the chance that he may cause more harm to himself then good without proper instruction. As to what you said regarding root principals, I agree with you wholeheartedly and couldn't have said it better myself. I also agree with what you said regarding the success of students or teachers in competition. I personally never judge one's martial arts ability on competition alone. I agree that competitions are very limited in their scope of what can or can't be used by the individual on the streets. And I myself in the past have met and even at times studied with famous teachers whom their students follow blindly and with hindsight, I believe weren't as knowledgable or skilled or moral as they should be. Some were just out to make a quick buck. I like to think of myself as more knowledgeable and less gullable then I was in my past choosing of "masters". As far as teachers having different interpretations of how the style or techniques should be done, all teachers teach it differently then other teachers even ones who studied the same style and from the same teacher! And there is no right or wrong way in their interpretations but My point is that the core foundation principals and basics are the important part that needs to be taught from the begining by a legitiamate teacher, then once a student understands these fully and can preform them correctly then he can practice the "window dressing" in his own way with his own style and self teaching. Also I too belive that no one is perfect and that no matter how skilled, or high a level you are you will still have bad habits and make mistakes, and never meant to infer otherwise. And it has been proven, at least in scientific history, that some things like, inventions, or positive results of some kind, came about purely by accident when one had made a mistake in their data. So if you can learn from your mistakes you can grow and improve, and mistakes are a nessessary part of learning throughout one's life, but I still believe in listening and learning about the experiances of qualified instruction by teachers who have already been there and done that so the student can limit the amount of mistakes he will make and have the benifit of their breakthroghs without wasting time with unnessasary mistakes. Teachers are only there to guide and most of the advanced learning will come from the continued practice of the student on his own. I still say you can see how good a teacher is by his students. If the students of a teacher can perform skillfully to a high degree all the same things the teacher can with results in areas like push hands, forms with correct posture, Qi flow, fa jing, rooting etc. and can properly explain the theories and principals of the style, then I believe that the teacher has proven himself to be a worthy guide in your martial arts journey. Anyway I think I have ranted enough, I enjoyed your last post and look forward to reading your future ones. Take care.
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