Lies, Deceit & Frauds Know no shame or boundries...

[jmd161]

Hey Dave,


By the way, i'm back in New York again....lol




jeff

[GeneChing]

Sorry Jeff. It now falls upon me to formally blackball you from the "plaguerized in the martial arts" club.

I'm delighted to learn that an article we published helped you find your style. I'm also delighted to find that our forum has helped you find another brother. We can all use more brothers. It's very gratifying for me personally when our work helps people progress in their martial journeys. Doing this is my own unwritten mission statement.

Hope you're subscribed.

[jmd161]

Sorry Jeff. It now falls upon me to formally blackball you from the "plaguerized in the martial arts" club.

I'm delighted to learn that an article we published helped you find your style. I'm also delighted to find that our forum has helped you find another brother. We can all use more brothers. It's very gratifying for me personally when our work helps people progress in their martial journeys. Doing this is my own unwritten mission statement.

Hope you're subscribed.

RATS!!!


just when i was finally being noticed for something...


Yeah Gene,

I thanked you and Joe many of times on this forum for helping me find my style and sifu. If it had not been for joe showing me that issue with Li Siu Hung on the cover doing Drunken Choy Lay Fut and my reading the article in that issue and the other on Black Tiger. I would have never known that a Master of such a rare style lived within my backyard basicly. Sifu doesn't care for the publicity, but without it i would've never found him.

Wayne and I are trying to get sifu to agree on some more articles, so who knows what wayne might have for you next.

jeff


You know, i must be the only fool that still buys them off the news stands racks.

[paulb]

I appreciate what you guys have said.
All I was told which Eric Tsai has checked and confirmed is that:
During the end of the 2nd World War, Bob Johnson was stationed in Hong Kong in the Millitary Police. He withnessed a street fight involving Master Wong Cheung and was so impressed with the way that he handled himself he persauded Master Wong to teach him. I understand that it was on a one to one basis and involved mainly street self-defence with little traditional syllabus such as forms etc. We are talking about the mid to late 40's when things were just getting sorted after the war and Fred Woo wouldn't even have been born yet.
This is all I have been told. Bob Johnson died 10 years ago and I only knew he trained in Hong Kong with a Master Wong until several months ago. It was only then I was finally told the truth and it was a Masetr called Wong Cheung. It was then that I started to dig deeper and found Eric and Jerry.
What is important to me is that I have now found my roots and have since started my education in Black Tiger properly.

[milojai]

Hi;
New to forum & its great from what I've seen.
Let me say this to this thread as far as the arts.
I have seen the same done in JKD-Kempo-Ninja ect.
I think Bruce Lee had a great Idea that got overlooked.
I wasnt so much to make a new style --Even though he accepted the
Black belt hall of fame award for the style & art Jeet kune do.

This is what my teacher said--We all have 2 arms & legs & punch &
kick the same.Round line--curve lines & straight lines.We can't punch ethnic
nor style.How we use our bodies to get to the same points!Make
each useage different.Now unless we grow 2 more arms & legs we wont have a different art.Now to use our bodies to the max & not lie to our self & claim styles.
To say mine is better or yours is better is to claim my box is better then your box. The arts were meant to unit man.But styles tend to seperate man.
If we unite as a person & say --Here I am as an artist. Then express yourself & how you felt it.
I see -know & understand the dillemas of how most arts have frauds ect.But can't we unite as artists & be the best we can & enjoy the art?

[jmd161]

I appreciate what you guys have said.
All I was told which Eric Tsai has checked and confirmed is that:
During the end of the 2nd World War, Bob Johnson was stationed in Hong Kong in the Millitary Police. He withnessed a street fight involving Master Wong Cheung and was so impressed with the way that he handled himself he persauded Master Wong to teach him. I understand that it was on a one to one basis and involved mainly street self-defence with little traditional syllabus such as forms etc. We are talking about the mid to late 40's when things were just getting sorted after the war and Fred Woo wouldn't even have been born yet.
This is all I have been told. Bob Johnson died 10 years ago and I only knew he trained in Hong Kong with a Master Wong until several months ago. It was only then I was finally told the truth and it was a Masetr called Wong Cheung. It was then that I started to dig deeper and found Eric and Jerry.
What is important to me is that I have now found my roots and have since started my education in Black Tiger properly.

I could be wrong, but i think the fight you speak of is something that was public knowledge. It is known and documented that Wong Cheung got into a fight with 10 tong members/gangsters on the docks one night. The guys who attacked him were carrying weapons, and the only injury wong Cheung suffered was a broken thumb.

This is not to discredit your account, but to speak of the fight i believe you're speaking of. It's been written in a few old chinese martial arts magazines as well. I agree that the importance is your seeking of knowledge of Blk Tiger and finding sources to assist your training within Hak Fu Mun. Eric has much info and many of the forms sigung taught. Sigung taught Hak Fu Mun in 1/3 rds , so there is still alot of knowledge out there.

It is only over the last few yrs that sifu has admitted something that many only guessed. He was indeed taught more than a 1/3rd by sigung and taught some that noone else has learned. Sifu trained many hours alone and private with sigung many assumed he learned different stuff and it's just being varified. It is because of this that i wanted a international Hak Fu Mun Assocation to come about and spoke of it with Eric and Jerry. To finally unite the entire style again, but sadly it was not to be. Maybe one day we can try again, because it's a shame to let so much knowledge go to waste. I can never learn all that sifu learned no matter how long i train, and he knows others that are not teaching that have even more bits and parts of the system.

Sigung was not only a Master of Hak Fu Mun, but Hung kuen and Hung Fut as well. Sigung spent over 80yrs of his life dedicated to training kung fu. It is noted that even while carrying on a simple conversation Wong Cheung was always practicing his kung fu. Whether it be sitting in a horse stance while talking or simple hand conditioning drills he was always doing something. Sifu has over 43 yrs of training and teaching knowledge some of which was to both eric's and jerry's sifu's. To this day sifu still refer's to sigung as "My Master" and his eyes light up when he speaks of sigung. There was a very special bond between sifu and sigung, i only wish Eric and Jerry could witness some of that.



jeff

[WanderingMonk]

In the last couple of days i've spoken to Paul Burkinshaw through a couple of emails. Infact the post he made above was the actual 1st email he sent me. He has been in contact with two Blk Tiger brothers Eric Tsai in Hong kong and Jerry Davis in Texas. Based on his conversations with eric he said that eric has been able to confirm his sigung's training with Wong Cheung.

I did not speak with eric to confirm this, but rather took paul's word of mouth that he and eric have discussed this matter. I told paul that my sifu does not know his sigung or of anyother non chinese that ever trained with Wong Cheung in Hong Kong, other than a group of students that traveled to Hong kong with their sifu, that included Jerry Davis. But if he were now training with Eric Tsai ,then he does have a direct connection to our lineage.


As far as the Hong Kong and American chapters of "The Black Tiger Assocation" That is something that has come about recently and my sifu chose not to be a part of it. I won't go into details of why because that is neither here nor there. Since Paul is now training with Eric i will look upon him as a brother within Hak Fu Mun. As i told him, he is welcomed anytime he's in the U.S. to meet with us and sifu (Fred Woo).


Jeff

Jeff,

Sifu Tsai said that Mr. Burkinshaw is legit. He said he will be sending you an e-mail sometime. I guess it slip through his schedule.

[jmd161]

Hi;
New to forum & its great from what I've seen.
Let me say this to this thread as far as the arts.
I have seen the same done in JKD-Kempo-Ninja ect.
I think Bruce Lee had a great Idea that got overlooked.
I wasnt so much to make a new style --Even though he accepted the
Black belt hall of fame award for the style & art Jeet kune do.

This is what my teacher said--We all have 2 arms & legs & punch &
kick the same.Round line--curve lines & straight lines.We can't punch ethnic
nor style.How we use our bodies to get to the same points!Make
each useage different.Now unless we grow 2 more arms & legs we wont have a different art.Now to use our bodies to the max & not lie to our self & claim styles.
To say mine is better or yours is better is to claim my box is better then your box. The arts were meant to unit man.But styles tend to seperate man.
If we unite as a person & say --Here I am as an artist. Then express yourself & how you felt it.
I see -know & understand the dillemas of how most arts have frauds ect.But can't we unite as artists & be the best we can & enjoy the art?

Nice idea milojai, but to know man is to know that man is human and humans make mistakes. The problem lies when we're too proud to admit that we make mistakes or were wrong. Bitter arguments or politics soon raise their ugly heads and seperate things even futher. Humans what can you do?


Jeff

[jmd161]

Jeff,

Sifu Tsai said that Mr. Burkinshaw is legit. He said he will be sending you an e-mail sometime. I guess it slip through his schedule.

WanderingMonk,


If Eric or Jerry say they're going to do something, the one thing i don't have to do is worry about them doing it. Eric is a very busy man and sometimes takes a bit of time to respond, but he always does.

Like i stated before i reconise paul as a fellow Blk Tiger Clan brother since he has sought out eric and trains with him. I see david as the same since he trains with Stanley Ho. It's the same lineage, so i look upon them as brothers no matter how long they've trained.

jeff

[Wong Ying Home]

Check your pm !

[latta]

Hi, Posters,

My name is Jerry Davis. I am the American president of The Black Tiger Martial Arts Association. Eric Tsai is the president of the other branch in Hong Kong and maintains our web site at:

www.black-tiger.net

My lineage in Black Tiger is:

Wong Cheung --------} Wu Man Hoi --------} Me.

My instructor studied personally under Grandmaster Wong for 12 years, 4 hours a day, every day. I myself have studied Black Tiger since 1973, although I doubt I will ever be half the martial artist of my predecessors.

Grandmaster Wong taught mostly one-on-one throughout his long life. Therefore, many people trained under the grandmaster over the years. Each was trained in a way the grandmaster felt conducive to their own circumstances, needs, and abilities. He rarely taught groups in the conventional classroom setting.

Eric Tsai and myself are the only people authorized to speak on behalf of our organization, The Black Tiger Martial Arts Association. Therefore, to anyone who might have questions or interest in this system, I would recommend that you correspond with us directly. Eric can be reached at his web site. I can be reached by PM at this board, or one can e-mail me directly at:

cusmhot@yahoo.com

My snail mail address is:

Jerry Davis
P.O. Box 31234
El Paso, Texas 79931

Regards to all.

[David Jamieson]

Hi.

Jerry, is that link right?
There is no references to sifu Wong at that .net site you posted.

[latta]

The correct link is the one Jeff posts at the bottom of his messages, e.g.:

www.black-tiger.org

Eric Tsai maintains this web site.

Sorry.....

[David Jamieson]

ah.

well it happens.

[husto]

I am not intending to create an argument and I mean this in a constructive manner not as an attempt to insult or denigrate.

This is a BB and anyone can post anything they want. Why are we to believe you and not him? Once someone posts something you don’t like you want to run and hide instead of dealing with the problem you created!

If you are the originator of the information then his error is he does not credit you. I have seen none of his art and none of yours so who are we to believe? My point is, to us average laymen, you could just as easily be lying as he is. Perhaps there are things you don’t know or information some others have forgotten that explains the discrepancy. We don’t know that!

While personally I appreciate that you have posted your information and I do not believe anyone should have any reason to hide their art if they truly believe it is of value, your Sifu has asked you not to post the information and you did it anyway. This was disrespectful and is your error. Now you will only compound your error by hiding what you believe is the true expression of your art. The general public will now perceive what you consider a fallacious expression of your art as the true expression because there is no longer an answer to it. The charlatans will have no competition and the innocent will suffer for your errors of judgment by your insistence to remove TRUE information from the public view. If you had not disobeyed your instructor in the first place you and your art might not be in this position, but now that you are in this predicament you owe it to your art and to the public to continue to provide factual information to counter what you see as erroneous information. Empty criticism is inherently meaningless because as I previously stated the average Joe doesn’t know who to believe!

If your original intention was to inform the public of the uniqueness of your art for the benefit of the public then your intentions were good, if you intended to boast about your art than your intentions were selfish. If you truly believe the world would benefit from the sharing of your art before, then to take it down now because of a few bad apples is irresponsible. You punish the many for the sins of the few! You shouldn't hide your head in the sand because a few people have taken advantage of your good intentions. The world is full of charlatans. You can look at your glass as half full or half empty. The half full perspective says your art is so valuable or interesting, etc. that there are people out there actually trying to make money off the name! This is a sign of distinction!

If you feel that is necessary to reveal the charlatans for whom they are then I encourage you to follow your principles, but I see it as a losing proposition to hide correct information now. You must continue to provide what you consider to be factual information, not just diatribes. Anyone can criticize others, but not everyone has the true facts. If you have the true facts you must provide them for the benefit of your art and the benefit of the public as well. Then let the public decide for themselves.

Keep in mind he can call his art anything he wants until your organization registers the name as a trademark. If he is lying about his history there is not much you can do other than say it is false. You CAN take any skill sets he provides and compare them to the actual skill sets taught. If you criticize without any proof then it is your word against his and your credibility will only be strong to those to whom you have already established credibility and will mean nothing to those who do not know you and vise versa for him or anyone else.

I say, “So what??”, if someone else is trying to get a pay off stealing (borrowing?) from your art. There will always be those who will take advantage and steal (borrow) from others. Do you think this is the only time it has ever happened in the history of man? If the credibility of your art is damaged by charlatan then it didn’t have much credibility to begin with since stealing from others is as old as man and quite rampant in the MA from the beginning! Credibility comes from the people practicing the art, not the art itself.

How many expressions are there of any art? Tai Chi? Aikido? Jujutsu? Karate? No one owns the market on anything. It is all up for grabs. Your responsibility now is to defend your art not hide it because someone has taken advantage or your good intentions!

I cannot help myself. I must say it.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Nothing personal. Never heard of you until today. I had the misfortune of dealing with a person who had your way with words. That man could convince you that saving the life of a person hit by a car in traffic was the wrong thing to do. He could convince students that they should let him sleep with their wives. And they did.

Now, the minute I hear that style of speech my hackles go up. I am waiting for the superiority and bull**** to come raining down all over me. I know someone is going to try to convince me that blue is green and black is white. Or that I should let them have sex with my wife.

I know you are a victim and cannot help what you have been turned into. I wish I could have warned you before you were changed.

Have you noticed the similarities between your verbal techniques and the verbal techniques women employ in order to control and possess men? If you haven't, you might learn something if you look into it. You might feel like you are looking in a mirror.