Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC

[Ray Pina]

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.
Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery ... it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) .... school (b)s? That makes no sense.


You have a few options:
1) Do something about it .... find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

2) Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

3) Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

[neilhytholt]

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery ... it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) .... school (b)s? That makes no sense.


You have a few options:
1) Do something about it .... find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

2) Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

3) Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

Well I was actually planning on quitting CMA period, but after much consideration, I'm thinking of dropping CMA in favor of martial arts styles where they don't do form work.

[Merryprankster]

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can't do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the "ULTIMATE"? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

On the other hand....if you can't fight well, those attacks aren't going to do you much good anyway. Good weapons, but without the delivery system, they are not much use.

I know the street is not the ring, but you know what? The kwoon is not the street either. Everybody plays by rules for safety.

Otherwise, there'd be a lot of blind eunuchs with tracheotomies out there...

neilhytholt, here's my take for what it's worth. BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete. They are willing to do the things that that entails. Further, the sportive context within which these combative sports/arts exist is integral to the art itself. What I mean by that is simple: Nobody argues about whether Jason Morris in NY and the SJSU Judo club are good schools. Nobody argues about whether Arizona State and Iowa are good wrestling colleges. Nobody argues over who coached whom...people only argue over which place is BETTER. The standards are clear, and measured against those standards, you know where to go to find top quality instruction. Yes, there are local clubs and hobbyists - some of them quite bad. But if you WANT to find great instruction and compete, you can.

Contrast this with the state of "traditional" MA. The emphasis was never on competition. There are usually a billion different little associations each with their affiliate schools, no standardized rule sets and each with their own world champion. There are constant arguments over what constitutes good instruction, about what the art really is, about who is really a good coach. There are even arguments over who is truly representing the "style" and what that means (heck, look at WT/WC/VT). There are also infinitely more "hobbyists" - guys that show up maybe twice a week, and more informal, less professional schools with odd schedules that only really even meet twice a week or so.

To sum up. Lots of TCMA guys just don't care about competition and the UFC. And that's totally fine. Some of those guys could surely compete and do well. It would require training like a competitor, which they may or may not do. But many of them probably just don't care.

[neilhytholt]

vision narrowing...opinion...hardening, get the bat revivifier robin, this stupid ass thread has made itslf a threat to gotham once again.

*Smacks original poster in back of head* You think this is a topic? Troll. lol

Now go read Chuck Liddell's tatoo 1000 times and stuff a bag of spaghetti noodles, uncooked up yer grain chute as penitance for creating such a retarded thread.

""In 1985, when I moved from Hawaii to California, I switched it from Kaju Kenbo to Hawaiian Kempo. I added some things to it, took away some things and started calling it Hawaiian Kempo. I took out the katas and the forms and I threw in more natural fighting techniques and conditioning. Now that’s my style. Like if you see Chuck (Liddell) with the tattoo on his arm, that’s the logo for my school.""

http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-mart..._hackleman.htm

Is that the tatoo you were referring to?

[Crushing Fist]

Hackleman says back in the ‘90s other martial artists began calling their style Hawaiian Kenpo, but he is the only instructor to spell his Hawaiian Kempo with an ‘m’. In Japanese, the letters ‘m’ and ‘n’ have the same symbol, so the art can be spelt either way. John has been spelling his art as Kempo since 1985.

say what?


I guess they aren't too up on japanese...


ma mi mu me mo

na ni nu ne no and 'n'




maybe they were thinking of 'l' and 'r'

[David Jamieson]

you train for what you are intending to do.

kungfu for the most part has a competitive fighting training regimen. It's called San Shou or San Da if you like.

For showy competitions, they demonstrate forms through the sport fo wu shu.

For in class stuff, they deal with classical pugilism, some up to date, some stuck in antiquity and kept for posterity.

UFC training regimen and many types of Kungfu training regimen simply don't have the same goals in mind.

UFC is specifically geared to getting in a ring and being beaten on, beating on someone else or a mix of both..to a decided finish if a knockout or submission is not obtained by either player.

In Kungfu training, there is focus on total development of a person using the vehicle of not only martial art training, but also the augmentation exercises that get us in touch with who we are and expose our strengths and weaknesses to us in more than just fighting.

There is some similarity, but it ends rather abruptly. there are many who have entered ufc, pride, etc etc etc who come from traditional martial art backgrounds. That background and all that was in it is not washed away when one decides to enter into competitive fighting. It is altered to fit the venue.

Now if someone chooses to disparage either without having experienced both, then they are talking out their ass plain and simple.

the person who has spent all their time in a kwoon and has never done any ufc style training should shut the hell up about it. YOU DO NOT KNOW.

the UFC guy who hasn't spent appropriate time training in classical martial arts should also shut the hell up because YOU DON'T KNOW either.

However, those who have spent enough time with both will, in my experience, invariably find a way to blend them together to get something for themselves that is acceptable on their training path. Comments from these types is valid and generally will be indicative of value in both paths.

for the most part, those that are adamantly against one or the other are almost always speaking from a standpoint of complete ignorance.

just pointing it out.

[Jamesbond_007]

Seriously guys, I can't believe you are missing the obvious one on this one. The reason CMA doesn't dominate the UFC is because CMAers are not taking Xyience.

Once I started taking Xyience I started to kick everyones butt. Also, I can fly now.

[PangQuan]

a large problem with cma is not cma. it is the students.

take my sifu for example. one day he will decide to train a certain technique in class. for this case we will use a basic 2 man self defense technique. He will spend the time it takes to make sure everyone that is present learns the technique, understands its application, and how to perform it correctly. Once this process is completed, he will likely not return to this technique for possibly even years.


why? its not up to him to make sure you practice what you learn. he gives you the technique, its up to you whether you train it regularly or not. he makes sure you understand it, is there to answer any future questions, but will not baby sit you.

Now if on your own time, before or after class, or at home or in the park. you can get together with your kung fu brothers, and intensively train this drill. everyday if you feel like it for 10 years. then you are a master with this technique. you have put in the time.

or you can do what most people do. only train it that one time. develope a very rough understanding of it and then be done with it. at which point, you have decided to waste your time.

if you suck at fighting, its your fault.

people place too much on the teacher. they cannot work out for you. or put in the hours.

they are a resource. not the skill.

much as one person stated earlier, its more than enough rather than not enough.

there is so much material present you cannot train all of it all the time. you recieve the techniques one at a time, decide what is best for you, keep it and throw out the rest.

thats what forms are. its a catelog so to speak. a library of techniques.

if you go to your "class" and its only 2 hours long, and you do that say 3 days a week. thats 6 hours, out of 168 in the week. if you dont put in the time yourself to correct your shortcommings, thats is entirely on your head.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

Umm, it's because most people who teach, not just CMA, but karate, TKD, have never had to defend themselves. I have, I grew in a bad city in the 1960s and had to defend myself everyday to just get to school and back, or go to the store.

Over the past 30 years I have used CMA to defend myself successfully all over the world in sudden situations, and I use what I learned from CMA forms. They worked perfectly every time.

Today, I teach CMA, and I have my students learn a quick short form, such as Wu Bu Quan, and they in one day are indeed able to take each other down from the lessons.

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'. There is no reason that CMA shoudl have to work in the ring at these caged fights you see on tv because those are unnatural events, sports, not self defense. CMA forms are self defense.

Fighting boils down to whoever is luckiest wins, because you have to be:
stronger, faster, younger, more fit, etc, etc than your opponent.

Stopping a fight takes understanding and confidence that the CMA works.
1-CMA only works when you use it to stop a fight.
2- You need to understand that all the moves in a CMA form can be done on many levels, such as punches, kicks, joint locks, and takedowns and throws.
3 - And, you need to understand that all CMA moves in forms are simulataneously offense and defense.
4 - And, you need to understand correct body mechanics.

I have seen these 4 things Lacking in almost all Martial Art instruction from any kind of school during the 30 years I have been doing Martial Arts.

It's when I researched these 4 things about CMA over the last 10 years that I have seen how CMA really works and forms have never let me down ever since.

Sparring teaches people to be stupid, because it is an unnatural situation, it is not self defense. You get bad habits from sparring, because we expect the partner to act a certain way. The person on the street will be unpredictable. Hence, only the confidence (with training) that the moves in the forms you learned are both offense and defense at the same time and each move works against any kind of incoming attack, THEN you are successful in self defense. Sparring does not teach self defense

But, free form partner training does wonders, if all aspects of moves from forms are worked with, and the idea that the moves are simulataneously offense and defense is adhered to.

Because, the foundamental thing about CMA is being taught: to use the moves in a form to stop a fight, not to fight against the incoming attacker.
Incoming energy is redirected so that it traps the attacker to defeat themselves.

CMA forms that are taught correctly, with the correct ideas, works exactly like a bull fighter deals with a raging bull.

If you learn to be a bull fighter via CMA you will always be successful in self defense.

[mantis108]

Education (both civil or martial) was a privilege not a right. One would learn MA either your family can afford the tuition (you've got yourself a teacher) or you are "contracted" (partically sold) to your Sifu; hence, the term master. There was not almost no such a thing as "middle class" learning martial arts for fun (at least not for the working poor) but learning martial arts for vocation.

Compare to Northern American market today this is unimaginable. MA here is one of the many past time activities available for the middle class. This is why we have McDojo and McKwoon all over the place to tailor to the soccer moms who want little Johnny and Jannie to be badysitted while "learning" something. Now many of those kids have grown up and they are now in the MA teaching force. Have these "privileged" kids ever fought for their lives? I will leave that question to you all.

Education ultimately is for improving the quality of life. Now if competition will help you improve your quality of life. Well, by all means more power to you. I guess many of the professional fighters (ie Ali, Graices, Ken Shamrock, et..) are a good examples of that.

As for forms are important to TCMA, well yes and no.

I think someone said that forms are meant for the teachers. I would agree to that. Because forms really do contain a whole lot more information then just fighting techniques. Do you need to know a form to be able to fight? Well, definitely not IMHO. However, if you are looking to fight "in style", then you can't go without the forms. Can TCMA handle martial sports events, I would say it's possible but first it will have to deal with the "delivery system" as MP pointed out. It would take some readjustments but it's not out of the question IMHO.

I believe Bruce Lee wanted to point to the fact that athleticism and the orderly competitive spirit not just any but the phyiscal contact of it was dying in TCMA in general. He also recognized the "delivery system" is FUBAR that's why he proposed to scrap it all and reform. This in my mind is the real "secret" of JKD from an observer point of view.

Personally, I am a firm believer in TCMA values and all but at the same time I am sick and tire of hearing "secret deadly moves" that makes TCMA special. Those moves don't make you a free thinking martial artist but turns you into something like a hunter who carries a rusted shot gun that has never been fired. God knows if that would even fire or back fire on you when you needed it most. Beside, I don't know if it is a blessing walking down the street with the knowledge that any moment (if attacked) you will become a "murderer" because the only option you have is to use some secret deadly moves to maim or kill another person. Now that's a life changing event that I think can be avoided if we learn a better delievery system which can provide more options than to kill, kill, kill. Don't be a slave of secret deadly techniques but be a master of martial arts, my friends.

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

I believe Bruce Lee wanted to point to the fact that athleticism and the orderly competitive spirit not just any but the phyiscal contact of it was dying in TCMA in general. He also recognized the "delivery system" is FUBAR that's why he proposed to scrap it all and reform. This in my mind is the real "secret" of JKD from an observer point of view.

Personally, I am a firm believer in TCMA values and all but at the same time I am sick and tire of hearing "secret deadly moves" that makes TCMA special. Those moves don't make you a free thinking martial artist but turns you into something like a hunter who carries a rusted shot gun that has never been fired. God knows if that would even fire or back fire on you when you needed it most. Beside, I don't know if it is a blessing walking down the street with the knowledge that any moment (if attacked) you will become a "murderer" because the only option you have is to use some secret deadly moves to maim or kill another person. Now that's a life changing event that I think can be avoided if we learn a better delievery system which can provide more options than to kill, kill, kill. Don't be a slave of secret deadly techniques but be a master of martial arts, my friends.

Mantis108

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

[SevenStar]

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.

It really hit me. Why doesn't CMA win the UFC? CMA has striking, right? CMA has grappling, right? CMA has kicking, right? So why doesn't CMA win the UFC?

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

it's the training methods. MP, ST00, myeslf and others here have been saying that for years. It's like CmA takes longer by design to become proficient at in most cases, as their training is much more segmented and less fighting focused.

[Royal Dragon]

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

Reply]
Start a High school program where your students attack you first so you get the practice in the drills you want first, and then they work them with each other.

Only by teaching what you know, will you be able to practice it, and get good at it.

In all honesty, this is the only reason i am willing to teach.

[SevenStar]

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

you don't have a choice here, man. any place you train will require to learn their art. your best bet is to either start your own study group or find a club that will let you work out, but not actually be part of the class. The problem there is that you still may not have people to spar with.

[wind draft]

Just for the sake you don't compare it to UFC or MMA, I still think kung fu overemphasis on forms. Recently I realize also that I want to be a better fighter and forms just ain't doing it. I told my Sifu and guess what happened? We did more forms. For some reason people think forms can get you good at fighting.

It seems on here we have a good amount of people who believe that kung fu needs to emphasis more on fighting and two person drills, and more drills.

In our school we do mostly punching air and forms. I'm actually tire of that stuff. I can do that all on my own time. I want to be able to fight. And don't say hang out at MMA gyms. Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing. Anybody????