Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC

[SevenStar]

Just for the sake you don't compare it to UFC or MMA, I still think kung fu overemphasis on forms. Recently I realize also that I want to be a better fighter and forms just ain't doing it. I told my Sifu and guess what happened? We did more forms. For some reason people think forms can get you good at fighting.

It seems on here we have a good amount of people who believe that kung fu needs to emphasis more on fighting and two person drills, and more drills.

In our school we do mostly punching air and forms. I'm actually tire of that stuff. I can do that all on my own time. I want to be able to fight. And don't say hang out at MMA gyms. Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing. Anybody????

it may be time to find a new school...

[neilhytholt]

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

Reply]
Start a High school program where your students attack you first so you get the practice in the drills you want first, and then they work them with each other.

Only by teaching what you know, will you be able to practice it, and get good at it.

In all honesty, this is the only reason i am willing to teach.

That, sir, is the very best idea to come up around here so far. Lots of people to work with, few preconceived notions, and if any of them have outside training in some martial arts or wrestling, so much the better, because then they can launch some decent attacks. Plus, no overhead associated with a school.

Have you ever tried this, though? Do the schools allow sparring? They probably wouldn't want students going home with ouchies. I guess if we dressed everybody up like TKD marshmallow men the injuries should be limited to some bruises and sprained toes, though.

[Chief Fox]

wind draft, your are in what was my exact same situation.

I think a lot of kung fu teachers maybe really don't know the actual applications of the forms so their answer is to just teach more forms. For those of us who want to go deeper the solutions are few and far between.

The truth is, good kung fu schools do exist. Schools where they focus on using the techniques from the forms in actual combat.

Forms are like a library. All of techniques are there. You can just check out a few techniques and read them. Or you can start at the begining and move through the whole library. Whose going to be the better fighter? They guy who is going through the whole library trying to get a piece of everything, or the guy who chooses to focus on just a few volumes in depth?

Maybe a stupid analogy but the library is too big to be an expert in everything, I for one am choosing to focus.

[Royal Dragon]

I have seen that too many times my self.

I personally feel you should have one, or two forms that you thourally master, inside and out. Not just in the air mind you. To me mastering is breaking it down into the two man drills, and learning to fight with the techniques the form contains "In Style".

[_William_]

I am considering switching schools because of the crap attitudes of some of the people in my school, and because I am finding the training methods to be wholly inadequate.

All we do is chi-sao drills... over and over... and this is how the senior students lord over me. Somehow its not okay if I hit them, because I'm a big guy, but they hammer away their shots at me like I'm a dummy? And when I hit them they get all ****y and touchy. And I'm thinking in my head, "God, if you can't take even light contact maybe you guys should take up tiddlywinks or something". For example, one time in chisao I hit someone and they just flipped out and started yelling at me. And this was a tap.

And some of the seniors(some... not all) are real **** negative. They want to keep their superiority and feel threatened or something, because I am able to hit them more consistently now? So they slip me little comments when chi-saoing or sparring "No, that won't work in a REAL fight" "Thats too fancy"(When I'm using textbook wing chun) "Too slow, too slow"(How am I NOT supposed to be slow when they discourage contact?)

Sparring is a giant ego exercise at my school. People get their **** emotions into it too much, like if I hit them its a direct affront to their honor or something. Its ****ing unreasonable. And when we spar its virtually noncontact, which KILLS timing.

I've been training there for six years now. Sure, I've picked up some skills. Basics of trapping, jamming, etc. that are the core wing chun syllabus. But to be honest with you guys, I am not sure in my heart if I can FIGHT.

And because the purpose of martial arts is to FIGHT, I feel that my time in the school is redundant. I'm not learning to fight there, I'm just doing cooperative chi sao over and over, where the seniors feed their egos by smacking me all the time while I am trying to hold back.

I am considering joining an MMA gym so I can hone my skills under pressure, and pick up MMA skills as well. But I feel tied to the school I'm at right now, because honestly I consider the sifu and some of the students there to be close friends after several years. But... I'm not learning to fight there. Not sure how to break off , because they tend to take it personally and I consider them friends.

[mantis108]

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

Bruce Lee was an opinionated individual who believed TCMA's methods (on fighting) are not sound. That's his opinion and he could be right in view of the rise of NHB and MMA events. But IMHO he focused on the negative rather than the positive. I don't know much about other TCMA styles but I do know that Northern Praying Mantis is quite practical when it comes to fight training. It's definitely not dry land swimming.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

May be you could list the sparring techniques and/or format from your former teacher so that we can have an idea whether it is possible to spar with other TCMA schools. BTW, I am curious as to what makes you believe that your former teacher's way is the best way for you? It is your opinion and we respect that but then we need to know the basis of this opinion.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

Well.... fighting is figthing. You sure don't need to train MMA which boxing can be a major component of that. But on the street you would have no choice to fight whatever style (just brawling included) or whom you deem okay to fight. Don't you think, it's better to have those experiences or get to know them anyway? Sometimes, people want you to fight their way is that through their experiences they know what's the safe way to protect yourself from getting injured. All those chin tuck, shoulder raise, etc in boxing is not just about their "form and structure". It is also about protecting yourself from getting serious hurt on the receiving end of a powerful counter combo such as cross-hook. Same thing with break falling and rolling properly in case you got thrown.

In my class, I often have people who claim they have experiences in other styles. I will have them do the same warm up routine that we do and I would observe them if they have the fundamentals (ie shadow boxing, breakfalling, etc) down. I would not have them participate in sparring in my club if they fail to reassure me with their abilities and decline to listen to my advice. I don't want to be responsible for silly injuries that can be avoided. I have students that get tossed by hip throws on carpeted concrete floor durring sparring sessions. So far, no serious injury other than wind got knock out and a lot of pain in the ribcage.

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, you have to find places with non-attitude. Like the last karate school I went to, I was sparring some little dude, and I hit him with about 20% force, and he goes, "That was kindof hard. You don't want to hit the female black belts with that kind of force, or they'll get really p*ssed off." ???

Basically the female black belts were all these relatively older women (35+), who had huge attitudes and 0 fighting skills. But they all made some $$$ off of giving private lessons (the instructor had this pyramid scheme going where any black belt could give privates and they both got a cut), so it was a huge ego thing.

But they did a lot of tournaments, so they were relatively okay with contact, except for the women. In fact the tournaments I got hit quite hard, often, and one time to the point my leg stopped working and I had to quit the match. (Ouch).

If you fight people who get hit and blow up, that's just really bad. Those types of people shouldn't be taking martial arts.

Maybe you should find a school that does a lot of tournaments if you want to get any sparring. Of course sparring isn't entirely like real fighting, but it's closer than form work.

[neilhytholt]

May be you could list the sparring techniques and/or format from your former teacher so that we can have an idea whether it is possible to spar with other TCMA schools. BTW, I am curious as to what makes you believe that your former teacher's way is the best way for you? It is your opinion and we respect that but then we need to know the basis of this opinion.

The way my former teacher sparred was singly, or with multiples, and you worked whatever techniques you wanted to. His favorite techniques against single fighters were chi-sao and arm wrapping, and sweeps. He usually fought in a side-stance, except against multiples.

But what he taught wasn't limited to that. We used fists, chi-sao, heel hooks, pretty much everything. I did a lot of heel hooks, back kicks and flip kicks because that was an easy way to get people trying to get in or behind me. (Why punch when you don't have to?) He liked to sweep me a lot.

Against multiples he used something like chi-sao but he'd be working 2 people at once. It's kindof hard to explain and I don't really have time to go into that.

However, these techniques do not seem to translate into the boxing world or MMA world. For example, he didn't hold high stances. In boxing they tend to have high stances and their weight kindof forward. This causes their center of gravity to be very high, leaving them vulnerable to sweeps, takedowns and leg attacks.

When I went to the MMA class they kept trying to make me do boxing. I tried to explain to them why I did not want to do boxing. I sparred with some of their people and they didn't know what to do because my face wasn't out in front. They'd come in and I'd kick them in the legs or I'd do a back kick to their stomach, or I'd wrap them up and punch them. Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Basically, what they do is just some useless stuff IMHO ...

[neilhytholt]

Oh, but I should add that even though the MMA folks do what is IMHO useless stuff, obviously it is more useful than 90+% of the schools out there, who seem to not train any fighting at all.

I'm especially tired of going to 'martial arts' schools that teach 'tai chi', but absolutely no fighting aspects of it. If they aren't teaching fighting they shouldn't list themselves as 'martial arts'.

[Knifefighter]

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

CMA based on forms = bad fighters
CMA based on same premise as live combative systems = good fighters.

yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves

Same for all the fighters who compete in MMA. They can’t use those moves either. If your style is dependent on those kinds of moves, it is severely lacking.
CMA that relies on pressure points, fish hooks and small joint manipulations = bad fightrs.

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

No it is not. If anything it is tailored to the standup and striking arts. Fighters are forced to stand up if there is not sufficient action on the ground.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

BINGO!

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA,

No it didn’t. If it did, it would have significantly more grappling and groundfighting.

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts?

UFC and other MMA venues are good laboratories and testing grounds.

I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes.

As there are in the street version of BJJ, but this has never stopped these fighters from stepping into the competitive arena.
Relying on roin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes = bad fighters.

All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day's training

If this were true, boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo and BJJ schools would have not students either.

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery

How are martial arts politically dangerous?

BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete.

True to some extent. But these arts also push the competitive factor. Each of these combative approaches believe that competing makes one significantly better and this approach is engrained in each of these disciplines. Judo goes so far as to base belt promotions on competitions. Many people have no intention to compete when they start, but end up competing because it is part of the culture.

take my sifu for example. one day he will decide to train a certain technique in class. for this case we will use a basic 2 man self defense technique. He will spend the time it takes to make sure everyone that is present learns the technique, understands its application, and how to perform it correctly. Once this process is completed, he will likely not return to this technique for possibly even years.

This is a very flawed method of teaching. Learning techniques well requires many sessions of having the same techniques taught, reviewed and corrected. This is the whole idea of studying with an instructor. It is up to the instructor to develop lesson plans to ensure that the technique is practiced over and over again. That is how learning occurs.

or you can do what most people do. only train it that one time. develope a very rough understanding of it and then be done with it. at which point, you have decided to waste your time.

I would say the instructor is wasting your time if he is only showing one technique a single time.

However, if you are looking to fight "in style", then you can't go without the forms.

Fighting “in style”??? A good fighter uses what works, not what is “in his style”.
Focusing on fighting "in style" = bad fighters.

Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing.

Kickboxing is how striking with hands and feet looks in fighting. Just like grappling looks like wrestling, Judo, and BJJ in fighting.

Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Most MMA fighters are used to getting kneed. That's probably why he freaked... he couldn't understand why you would pull the knee.

[neilhytholt]

Most MMA fighters are used to getting kneed. That's probably why he freaked... he couldn't understand why you would pull the knee.

And here I thought it was because he thought he was going to get a straight shot right into the face ... ******!

[David Jamieson]

_william_

your story is a sad one that is echoed in many discussion forums.

suck in a big breath in and go look elsewhere if you are stuck in an ego farm.

It's one thing to deal with when it's your peers, but when your instructors and teachers are full of it still, then you can guarantee yourself that you're not going to learn much from them. they will always deny you progress and always be fluffing their own chests.

[Knifefighter]

And here I thought it was because he thought he was going to get a straight shot right into the face ... ******!

Nah... MMA fighters are used to getting kneed... happens all the time.

[FatherDog]

The reasons why CMA doesn't win the UFC
3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!

Nobody who fights in the UFC trains 7 hours a day. I've trained at Team Quest, my coach has trained with Militech and Jeremy Horn. They're all top level fighters, and they train between 10 and 20 hours a week, tops.

[FatherDog]

Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything

You're full of ****.