Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC

[PangQuan]

This is a very flawed method of teaching. Learning techniques well requires many sessions of having the same techniques taught, reviewed and corrected. This is the whole idea of studying with an instructor. It is up to the instructor to develop lesson plans to ensure that the technique is practiced over and over again. That is how learning occurs.

this is not to say how he teaches every technique. this is to display that there are so many techniques available in the chinese martial arts, you cannot dedicated serious time to drilling every single one with your students every day. there is not enough time in the day for such activity.

more what i was trying to get across is that often he will pull at technique out that is not part of our regularly repeated drills, a special technique (special in the sense that it is not part of our regularly drilled material)

he will give us these moves and explain them in detail. spending often and entire class so everyone gets a good feel and understanding.

From here its back to regularly drilled material.

but at the same time he has given everyone the taste of a drill that we can continue on our own if we wish to, but it is a drill that is not going to be part of his regularly taught material.

[mantis108]

The way my former teacher sparred was singly, or with multiples, and you worked whatever techniques you wanted to. His favorite techniques against single fighters were chi-sao and arm wrapping, and sweeps. He usually fought in a side-stance, except against multiples.

But what he taught wasn't limited to that. We used fists, chi-sao, heel hooks, pretty much everything. I did a lot of heel hooks, back kicks and flip kicks because that was an easy way to get people trying to get in or behind me. (Why punch when you don't have to?) He liked to sweep me a lot.

I can see why you feel uncomfortable going against the MMA trained individuals. I am sure your former teacher and yourself are skilled. But sorry to say this seems to me is more inline with continuous point sparring with some degree of takedown allowed. From what you described here, I believe there is a serious lack there of capitalizing of the clinch range/phase (and we are not even talking about the ground game). It also seems to me that you are fixated on an approach of fighting, strategy and tactic. In a polite setting, you might do very well indeed. Personally, I would believe that a rude awakening is in the corner somewhere. I don't mean this to be a criticism of what you do. I meant this as a friendly advice. The skill that you have may be giving you a false sense of security. It's a hurdle that we as martial artists will face at least once if not more on our journey. In my mind, you have your teacher's image to cut down first (your cup is full because of that). That's a battle that you will have to deal with. I am just calling it as I see your posts developed. Please ignor my advice if you fill it's irrelevant.

Against multiples he used something like chi-sao but he'd be working 2 people at once. It's kindof hard to explain and I don't really have time to go into that.

No comment.

However, these techniques do not seem to translate into the boxing world or MMA world. For example, he didn't hold high stances. In boxing they tend to have high stances and their weight kindof forward. This causes their center of gravity to be very high, leaving them vulnerable to sweeps, takedowns and leg attacks.

Boxing in ring boxing format is somewhat different from MMA/UFC or street boxing (dirty boxing). The latter knows how to deal with the shoot and the clinch game. There's even joint attacks in street boxing. It would be wise to take a deeper look into it. Footwork in boxing is second to non - float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. That means they can explore your blindspots more effeciently and easily.

When I went to the MMA class they kept trying to make me do boxing. I tried to explain to them why I did not want to do boxing. I sparred with some of their people and they didn't know what to do because my face wasn't out in front. They'd come in and I'd kick them in the legs or I'd do a back kick to their stomach, or I'd wrap them up and punch them. Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Basically, what they do is just some useless stuff IMHO ...

Please refer to Father Dog's last post. I am not sure what kind of MMA school you have encountered and what kind of fighter (may be someone new to that gym like yourself?) they put you up against. Either the gym coaching is seriously flawed, or it is the fighter that suck big time. But then to your credit it might just be that you have some skill. If that float your boat, well more power to you.

Anyway, I would appologize to you first if my comments offended you. I am by no means critisizing. Good luck in your search.

Mantis108

[Golden Arms]

The more I read neilhytholt's stuff, the more I wonder: Is he a troll or just hardheaded? Why the hell were you even going to a school with blackbelt women doing a pyramid scheme. The fact that you couldnt figure out that school sucked before you joined speaks volumes more than your constant *****ing. Either start your own private teaching/public school, or go to someone elses and learn. Either way, stop *****ing about how everything everyone does is wrong and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Any good school, if asked about applications, will just ask you to attack and be able to perform several for the same move on you, and not from some prearranged attack either.

On a seperate note, the state of martial arts in the world today makes me sick. The only thing worse than the MMA guys being right about 70% of the schools out there, is that the 30% that are good have to deal with guys like this, as well as people coming in looking for pretty much everything BUT fighting. Even the art portion of "martial art" is a joke in most cases. It is an art in that you are taking the skillset to a high level, not in that it should look pleasing to the eye in form performance. The is the same kind of crap that f'd the samurai culture up once the Japanese stopped fighting. Suddenly you had all these samurai around, many of which hadnt even fought, practicing a bunch of arts and idealizing things, all the while losing the lifeblood of their skillset.

If you want to get good, train. Dont talk about it, dont try to find ways other people are doing it, and critique them, find someone that does it and work under them, learn how to work hard.

[neilhytholt]

The more I read neilhytholt's stuff, the more I wonder: Is he a troll or just hardheaded? Why the hell were you even going to a school with blackbelt women doing a pyramid scheme.

Golden arms. Two words for you ... bugger off.

The reason I went to this school was because it was the only school in town that had sparring. It was a small town, and I wanted to do sparring.

[Green Cloud]

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

[jethro]

but I wish so badly I could watch ufc all day long, instead of like 1 fight a week when i am on break at work. The last one I saw was the iceman against this REALLY tough kid from omaha. But he got beat in the fourth. So seriously, I wish I could watch it more, and btw, how many rounds do they go, I thought it was 3, but maybe it's 5? Also btw, what does "OT" mean?

Sincerely
the friendly troll

[ShaolinTiger00]

kungfu for the most part has a competitive fighting training regimen. It's called San Shou or San Da if you like.

I'd just like to take this time to point out something that San Shou Guru ( A national champion and world competitor) said last week:

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.



The truth is that fighters from good teams win sanshou events. TCMA guys who step up usually get moved down in the first round.

[neilhytholt]

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.
[/I]

The truth is that fighters from good teams win sanshou events. TCMA guys who step up usually get moved down in the first round.

That pretty much mirrors my experience in fighting boxers. You can train for years and win karate tournaments and still get your ass kicked by a boxer if you fight like a sparring tournament.

[neilhytholt]

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

Actually I haven't seen any CMA guys since the first ones, I think. I don't think they even really compete anymore. It seems to be primarily kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, grappling, etc.

Are you implying that they're just shut out or something? That's possible. I don't know. I just assumed that they got so badly beaten in the first onex that they didn't even enter anymore.

[neilhytholt]

In my mind, you have your teacher's image to cut down first (your cup is full because of that). That's a battle that you will have to deal with. I am just calling it as I see your posts developed. Please ignor my advice if you fill it's irrelevant.

..

Boxing in ring boxing format is somewhat different from MMA/UFC or street boxing (dirty boxing). The latter knows how to deal with the shoot and the clinch game. There's even joint attacks in street boxing. It would be wise to take a deeper look into it. Footwork in boxing is second to non - float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. That means they can explore your blindspots more effeciently and easily.

...

Please refer to Father Dog's last post. I am not sure what kind of MMA school you have encountered and what kind of fighter (may be someone new to that gym like yourself?) they put you up against. Either the gym coaching is seriously flawed, or it is the fighter that suck big time. But then to your credit it might just be that you have some skill. If that float your boat, well more power to you.

Anyway, I would appologize to you first if my comments offended you. I am by no means critisizing. Good luck in your search.

Mantis108

I don't think I'm a bad fighter, but I don't think I'm a great fighter, either. Believe me, after I left my first sifu, I ran into a studio where the sifu liked to bring in outside people, any outside people that people wanted to, to spar on sparring night. We had everybody from top level TKD guys to boxers to bar brawlers.

And I can tell you that the first time I fought a boxer I got my ass handed to me, that's for sure. They moved much faster than I expected and hit really hard.

But I found that it was capable of countering them using basic taiji. Yes, most people on here won't believe that, I am sure, but that was my experience.

And yes, the people I fought at this place weren't that great, at all. I've been to places that train UFC and Pride fighters and I can tell you, I'm nowhere near, nothing at all their level of conditioning and skill. They train almost every day. I just don't have the time for that.

Anyways, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm floating my boat, because I know that I inherently suck. Because I don't do enough training. I mean, I got my ass handed to me by a JKD guy the other day who moved faster than anybody I've ever met. But I don't think he would be able to stand up against the UFC guys because he's not at their level of conditioning.

[SifuAbel]

Oh lord, here we go again.

Lets have the abridged version, shall we? Without all the assumtions made here, the bottom line still stands that one must fight with contact and with various styles of opponenets. Putting the blame on anything else is pure hyperbole. A jab, a cross, and a boxers stance are as traditional as it gets. I learned that stuff in the first 6 months. It is NOT traditional NOT to fight. If you have to think about your moves you are 5 seconds behind the guy that doesn't. Fighting is abstract. Its an abstaction built on the concrete of form(which is not to be confused with sets). Ma bo is awesome. And if you suck at it, too bad for you.

ST , you've fought 2000 matches?

No, there hasn't been a large CMA showing in the UFC etc EVER. If you told me 1000 CMA players lost consistantly over 10 years then you'd have a statistic. Also, few, if none, in 10 years has been undefeated in UFC. The guy that wins today will lose tomorrow and win the next day. So winning doesn't really matter either.

Is the majority of CMA in the US ricebaged into oblivion? I can't say no. Many of whom I see doing so called TCMA don't have "it".

Are there people that have had a good showing ? Yes, onasis come to mind.

Are there a few gems that still fight? Yes, there are some. More than you'd think. But overshadowed by those who suck.

[David Jamieson]

but I wish so badly I could watch ufc all day long, instead of like 1 fight a week when i am on break at work. The last one I saw was the iceman against this REALLY tough kid from omaha. But he got beat in the fourth. So seriously, I wish I could watch it more, and btw, how many rounds do they go, I thought it was 3, but maybe it's 5? Also btw, what does "OT" mean?

Sincerely
the friendly troll

last to first:

OT=Off Topic

and

ufc matches are 3x5 minutes except for chumpionship matches which are 5x5 minute rounds.

[hung-le]

Whoa.... this is some old crap that’s been played out. i.e. "Why CMA Doesn't Win in the UFC....... BALLS!!!!! Usually its floated by somebody with a macho handle like "Choke U out" or "U been Taped" I've always been partial myself to "Stick Fighter" or " Pig sticker " and Gun U down"

Sometimes they get clever with Japanese judo terms like "juji Gatame"


All posting with a bent on lording over any martial art that doesn't focus on grappling............



Question: Ever wonder why they frequent a Chinese news group like this and not a MMA or Jujitsu news group?

Answer: Because they are full of BS...that's why!


nice try neilhytholt!



Now they say the UFC favors the stand up game .....BALLS!!!!!!!!!!! yet they fall to mention that many get ko'ed before they get a chance to take it to the ground...or the guy gets to his feet after being took down then Ko's his opponent. they fall to metion that in UFC and Pride its now about fifty-fifty (submission to Ko)

MMA displays some serious traditional Quan Shu techniques.
Chuck Liddell has Ko'ed a couple of guys with one of my favorite punches "Shangbu guo shou zaichui" ( Step up wrap hand and plant fist)

Are not many knockouts scored by repeated reverse punches? CMA?

In fact I would say MMA are starting to look more and more like traditional martial art contests. Gone is the BS where the guy got up on his toes and danced trying to kick box (that crap was nothing but point fighting...Last time I checked Shaolin Monks didn't get up on thier toes and kick box. Usually that crap wouldn't even work in a bar fight against a thug...let alone someone highly skilled in free style Jujitsu....... Its the reason why you don't see bouncing and weaving on the toes in traditional forms.....

Put some knee high boots, some old style tights and trunks with a sash around his midrift and Tim Sylvia with his "on guard stance" mimics an old style bare knuckle fighter... talk about traditional!

Those first UFC events where filled with traditional guys who never had any experience with guys outside their respected styles..(they where rank armatures compared to all those Jujitsu and free style wrestlers ) that was obvious to anyone who ever had been in a few real fights)


The only thing wrong thing with CMA is the same thing wrong with most martial arts.....They usually don't train/spar against other respected styles... (I'm not talking cross training ....I'm talking about ...Taking your style and cross training IT against other styles...finding out what works....in a free style format)
If your name is "Pig Sticker" or "Juji Gatame" or whatever ...don't hand no crap... save it.........because I've trained at some pretty affluent Jujitsu/Judo and Sambo schools and have pulled off (dare I say it?) CMA techniques


I just can't believe this post made it to five pages......Asinine! pure 100%

[SevenStar]

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

I posted their results from the first 8 UFCs in another thread - you commented on that thread. There have been other losses since, naturally. On average, it would seem that they lose more than win. someone posted a clip here a few months back of a kung fu guy that was beaten by a wrestler... I think he was a student of huangkaivun - a guy who used to post here.

[jethro]

what, no gay jokes about the ufc this time. Why are you coming on here talking about judo and crap like that. It is superior to kung fu , but still depends on the practicioner. I will guarantee you that you can use your jujitsu style on me and I will leave you inconscious, and I won't even be usin kung fu on you . So go and give somebody else a history lesson on judo cause it may surprise you, btu people on here actually know what that is