Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC

[neilhytholt]

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.

It really hit me. Why doesn't CMA win the UFC? CMA has striking, right? CMA has grappling, right? CMA has kicking, right? So why doesn't CMA win the UFC?

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

[Shaolinlueb]

um, i guess maybe. i hardly see people practice the fighting aspect of it too much. htere are schools that do. chinese military systems do too. yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

[neilhytholt]

um, i guess maybe. i hardly see people practice the fighting aspect of it too much. htere are schools that do. chinese military systems do too. yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

[Golden Arms]

Then go somewhere else...Why are you posting this on a Chinese Martial Arts forum? I went through your posts, and I have yet to find one where you are not *****ing. Why dont you head over to 6th and king street in Seattle, WA when you are there, and see if you have any doubts that those guys can fight.

[neilhytholt]

Then go somewhere else...Why are you posting this on a Chinese Martial Arts forum? I went through your posts, and I have yet to find one where you are not *****ing. Why dont you head over to 6th and king street in Seattle, WA when you are there, and see if you have any doubts that those guys can fight.

I've been to Chinatown in Seattle (if you can call it Chinatown, it's the smallest one in any major city I've come across), and I know those guys can fight -- that is, the semi homeless guys hanging around outside, lol.

My main point isn't to diss CMA in particular or anything but rather make the observation that the training regime in most places doesn't seem convenient or conducive to creating good fighters. Obviously this won't be popular, I won't post this on here anymore.

[Fu-Pow]

Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.
.

Absolutely. The forms are so dense with information that just knowing one would be enough. So why so many forms? Personally, I gave up on learning forms about a year ago (27 at last count) and I'm focused more on free sparring and ways to train applications.

Boxers, wrestlers, muy thai you start practicing with a partner from day one. TCMA you spend a lot of time, by yourself, learning forms on forms on forms.

Forms have there place but they are overemphasized to the exclusion of partner training both coreographed and freestyle....and ultimately that's where you're going to learn how to fight.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

Umm, it's because most people who teach, not just CMA, but karate, TKD, have never had to defend themselves. I have, I grew in a bad city in the 1960s and had to defend myself everyday to just get to school and back, or go to the store.

Over the past 30 years I have used CMA to defend myself successfully all over the world in sudden situations, and I use what I learned from CMA forms. They worked perfectly every time.

Today, I teach CMA, and I have my students learn a quick short form, such as Wu Bu Quan, and they in one day are indeed able to take each other down from the lessons.

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'. There is no reason that CMA shoudl have to work in the ring at these caged fights you see on tv because those are unnatural events, sports, not self defense. CMA forms are self defense.

Fighting boils down to whoever is luckiest wins, because you have to be:
stronger, faster, younger, more fit, etc, etc than your opponent.

Stopping a fight takes understanding and confidence that the CMA works.
1-CMA only works when you use it to stop a fight.
2- You need to understand that all the moves in a CMA form can be done on many levels, such as punches, kicks, joint locks, and takedowns and throws.
3 - And, you need to understand that all CMA moves in forms are simulataneously offense and defense.
4 - And, you need to understand correct body mechanics.

I have seen these 4 things Lacking in almost all Martial Art instruction from any kind of school during the 30 years I have been doing Martial Arts.

It's when I researched these 4 things about CMA over the last 10 years that I have seen how CMA really works and forms have never let me down ever since.

Sparring teaches people to be stupid, because it is an unnatural situation, it is not self defense. You get bad habits from sparring, because we expect the partner to act a certain way. The person on the street will be unpredictable. Hence, only the confidence (with training) that the moves in the forms you learned are both offense and defense at the same time and each move works against any kind of incoming attack, THEN you are successful in self defense. Sparring does not teach self defense

But, free form partner training does wonders, if all aspects of moves from forms are worked with, and the idea that the moves are simulataneously offense and defense is adhered to.

Because, the foundamental thing about CMA is being taught: to use the moves in a form to stop a fight, not to fight against the incoming attacker.
Incoming energy is redirected so that it traps the attacker to defeat themselves.

CMA forms that are taught correctly, with the correct ideas, works exactly like a bull fighter deals with a raging bull.

If you learn to be a bull fighter via CMA you will always be successful in self defense.

[Knifefighter]

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'.

And what, exactly is "stopping a fight"?

[SiuHung]

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

The premise of CMA? No.
I gather from your post you've been unable to find a teacher who has the relative experience or desire to train students in the martial aspects. Keep looking...they're out there. Good luck finding that in most martial arts, regardless of ethinic origin.

One word of advice however...If you're looking for dominance in the UFC, i.e. to be a professional fighter, go hang out in an MMA gym. Chances are you will have a very short lived career at it unless you are a natural.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, aftr much relection, I have come t the conclusion that forms were originally for TEACHERS to oranise thier curriculem. Thye were not for students.

After a time, with the advent of comercial schools, and health oriented students, forms became more and more popular for the athletic aspect. At the same time fighting was more and more frowned on as martial arts teachers were trying to rise on the social ladder, and fit in with the educated elite.

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA, techniqus, two man work, and lots and lots of drills. Forms were only practiced by teachers to review thier curriculem and keep some assemblance of conditioning.

[Chief Fox]

I see your point. I just left a school that was forms based. But the base of any CMA style is the forms. This doesn't mean that all you practice is the forms. This couldn't be further from the truth. The only way to become a good fighter is to practice drill and spar with another person. My current sifu says all the time that punching air only gets you so far. To make the techniques work you have to drill them.

Boxing, you have to drill the combinations over and over again. Same thing with BJJ, Same with Muay Tai and it should be the same at your kung fu school.

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

Also...

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can't do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the "ULTIMATE"? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

[neilhytholt]

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

You are one of the lucky ones, that's for sure.

All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

Right, so you'd expect if the training regime of most CMA schools was as effective as other arts, that the CMA fighters would do better. But this doesn't seem to be the case. Most of the UFC fighters instead seem to be taking boxing/kickboxing/BJJ.

Of course, UFC/Pride/etc. isn't the end all be all of fighting. It's a ring sport. But it is one of the few places where fighters actually seem to be fighting realistically outside the street.

[tug]

I would just like to say, as I have said before (though not rememberably), every human being has their own singular opinion/belief about life and how they get through it. "Whatever works for you", basically. TCMA or just simply CMA is about forms. We all know this. It is up to the individual to decide which or what style/form/application/mode/hold/attack/defense/responsibility/respect/lineage/history/legend/following/code or actual art is best for them. Having said that, it is my belief that forms are a way of having more than enough than too little. IMO, the idea was to compile an arsenal of moves (all inclusive) instead of just a couple that work. I relate it to "always bring more cable than you need, that way, you aren't stuck when you need more than the inventory stated". Am I making sense here?

All that being said, I am a UGE fan of UFC, Pride, K1 and enjoy immensely the heart (blood, sweat and tears really) of this new age of MMA and NHB fighters.

I am not here to dispute the "betterness" of TMA or MMA, I'm just trying to possibly state that the two are not alike. You say tomahto, I say tomato. Do what you do because you like it and it feels right for you.

I guess IMO these arguments are pointless as we are all different and do EVERYTHING for different reasons.

TuG.

[neilhytholt]

You know, aftr much relection, I have come t the conclusion that forms were originally for TEACHERS to oranise thier curriculem. Thye were not for students.

After a time, with the advent of comercial schools, and health oriented students, forms became more and more popular for the athletic aspect. At the same time fighting was more and more frowned on as martial arts teachers were trying to rise on the social ladder, and fit in with the educated elite.

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA, techniqus, two man work, and lots and lots of drills. Forms were only practiced by teachers to review thier curriculem and keep some assemblance of conditioning.

It really seems like this is true and a big change seems to have happened in the past 20 years or so. When I took CMA in the '80s, mostly it was techniques, drills, punching, kicking and sparring. Forms were something that you did, but they were just for belt requirements. It wasn't like you started out with forms.

I've been talking to Tai Chi students of Doc Fai Wong (evidently my first sifu studied with Doc Fai Wong) and they've been saying that their tai chi starts out with drills and techniques from day 1. The form is something you study, but it's not necessary to get your feet wet.

Contrast that to the Tai Chi schools with somebody like Yang Jun (the Yang lineage holder), where it's nothing but form work for like a year or more until you get to push-hands, and they seem to teach few fighting aspects ever.

[Hitman]

The reasons why CMA doesn't win the UFC
1. All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day's training. You have to teach the water down techniques to your students inorder to keep them happy. I know a teacher who teaches the traditional way of training in praying mantis. When I was there learning praying mantis years ago, my forearms and shins were black and coverd with bruises after every lesson. The lessons were boring and painfully hurt. We started off with 15 people in the class and end up with 6 people after 1 month training (4 lessons). My ex-teacher was not making any money from his classs. He was doing it out of the love of teaching. He had been doing this for more than 20 years and had taught less than 50 people during this time.
2. Are you willing to get hurt in the UFC? Not many people want to get hurt in a fight. Many people will encourage other people to fight, but they themselves will never enter into any one of the NHB tournament. If you want to see people from CMA to win the UFC, then YOU should enter it yourself. I cannot enter myself in any of the NHB, because my wing chun was very badly taught and I will lose.
3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!

Hitman