Bagua / Xingyi / Taiji vs. Centerline Systems

[neilhytholt]

Have any of you ever fought any really good Wing Chun or JKD guys?

I met a JKD guy tonight that moved faster than anybody else I've ever met, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Because his weight was forward, he was in a high stance, but he still moved faster than anybody and his punches still seemed to have a lot of force behind them.

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of this. How can you move to the side or get behind somebody who is so fast they hit you like 3x before you can really move?

I never took JKD seriously because I never met anybody who was good at it, but now that I have, I don't think you could ever beat a JKD guy even using classical wing chun.

[neilhytholt]

Basically, I guess the question for you bagua, etc. people out there, is does bagua, etc., have something like sticky hands. I've heard of some push-hands exercises, like big circle, etc., but this seems ineffective against people doing a lot of chain punching and short hand moves.

Are there any short hand sets to baguazhang or exercises something akin to wing chun, for the centerline? Thanks in advance!

[imperialtaichi]

Have any of you ever fought any really good Wing Chun or JKD guys?

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of this. How can you move to the side or get behind somebody who is so fast they hit you like 3x before you can really move?

Yes, I play with really good Wing Chun guys all the time.

The key is, you NEVER give them an opportunity to even punch or get a strong footing, and you have to move in and jam them from the side straight away. If they cannot stand firm or move their arms, they cannot chain punch you or generate power.

Remember all the front/centre line martial art styles follows some sort of a "cone" energetics; so by understanding their cones you can manipulate them pretty well.

In real fights, it is naive to think that one can get out without a scratch. My opinion is to minimize damage to my body and maximise damage to the opponent. So if I am not playing but in real fights, I am prepared to take a few hits, if it means I can set myself up and finish him/off for good.

Cheers,
John

[neilhytholt]

I guess I'm just wondering if there's something akin to the wooden dummy practice or those sticky-hand type exercises for bagua,xingyi,taiji, etc., for guarding the centerline.

The only problem I have with the wing chun wooden dummy is that it seems to use the inside (outside? weaker bone, bone towards the pinky) of the arm a lot and leave the underside open, which is really bad for knife fighting because it leaves all those veins open to getting cut.

[imperialtaichi]

I guess I'm just wondering if there's something akin to the wooden dummy practice or those sticky-hand type exercises for bagua,xingyi,taiji, etc., for guarding the centerline.

In Tai Chi, we have very neat, very useful arm/leg/body trapping techniques, though not very obvious unless you look very carefully into it. Bit hard to describe on the net without actually crossing hand and showing you how it's done.

As with guarding the centreline? We lure the opponent in, as they are committed to attacking us, the rest of them are left opened for us to control. So classically, just as the opponent thought "ah ha, I'm hitting John on the chest", next thing he knows he had missed me and I have taken out his armpits and ribs.

Cheers,
John

[maoshan]

Peace

Yes, I’ve fought quite a few excellent Wing Chun and JKD guys over the years.

(Basically, I guess the question for you bagua, etc. people out there, is does bagua, etc., have something like sticky hands. I've heard of some push-hands exercises, like big circle, etc., but this seems ineffective against people doing a lot of chain punching and short hand moves.)

In Ba-Gua, we have our own equivalent of sensitivity training. As for your assessment, I have to ask what’s your level of achievement?
Ba-Gua stylist don’t deal with the centerline theory, we cut the corner so to speak.
We also develop bridge power. A Yin stylist would just pierce through the chain punches for example.


(I guess I'm just wondering if there's something akin to the wooden dummy practice or those sticky-hand type exercises for bagua,xingyi,taiji, etc., for guarding the centerline.)

Another method of Ba-Gua, which is the core method, is to not be where the strike is aimed. Constant motion doesn’t allow a set up for the technique. The centerline is always guarded because it’s never there.

(So you just move really fast and jam them? The problem I had with the JKD guy is that it seemed like he could move backwards really fast. I couldn't really move fast enough to get beside him. Basically it was like he was on speed. Kindof creepy. But I wasn't really trying that hard, so I don't know how effective he really was)
Ba-Gua is known for speed. Learning to Cut off the power at the source is part of basic application drills in Ba-Gua. And to get real about it, true speed is a state of mind. The more relaxed you are, the faster you react. Once you’ve acquired enough experience, good timing will always over come speed.

Wait for the attack and observe. I don’t know how long you’ve been studying your art, but you have to get to the point where your awareness will be able to assist you.
The internal has very specific methods and principles that must be learned before you can use them against another martial artist correctly, other than that you’re kickboxing, which has nothing to do with the internal.

My 2 cent

Maoshan

[neilhytholt]

Yes, I play with really good Wing Chun guys all the time.

The key is, you NEVER give them an opportunity to even punch or get a strong footing, and you have to move in and jam them from the side straight away. If they cannot stand firm or move their arms, they cannot chain punch you or generate power.

Remember all the front/centre line martial art styles follows some sort of a "cone" energetics; so by understanding their cones you can manipulate them pretty well.

In real fights, it is naive to think that one can get out without a scratch. My opinion is to minimize damage to my body and maximise damage to the opponent. So if I am not playing but in real fights, I am prepared to take a few hits, if it means I can set myself up and finish him/off for good.

Cheers,
John

So you just move really fast and jam them? The problem I had with the JKD guy is that it seemed like he could move backwards really fast. I couldn't really move fast enough to get beside him. Basically it was like he was on speed. Kindof creepy. But I wasn't really trying that hard, so I don't know how effective he really was.