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Thread: Can meditation be dangerous (demons)?!

  1. #16
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    find a qualified teacher to help you, and "demons" will no longer be an issue. In the meantime, this might calm things down a bit:

    In Qi Gong, when we open the superficial pathways of the meridians, some common initial sensations are pain, stiffness, heat, shaking and tingling in the muscles and limbs. These sensations emerge into our consciousness as we look for the roots to the obstructions in the pathways. With GENTLE natural practice and observation, the obstructions are gradually cleared, allowing for the next step in the development of virtue.

    But what of the deep pathways of the meridians? How to clear those? Well, one answer is meditation.

    Our minds are cluttered with many acquired influences. These include perceptions, thoughts, and habitual mental emotional states. Acquired influences can cloud the mind's innate influence on our selves and the world. In practicing meditation, many systems look towards clearing these acquired influences by re-establishing an awareness of the moment at hand. In doing so, the acquired influences naturally appear in stark relief to the landscape of true nature in the form of thoughts, perceptions, persistent mental-emotional states, even visions. Remember that these are acquired. Continue the work of maintaining awareness of the moment, and the obstructions will naturally clear away by themselves.

    Clearing the deep channels is a natural process, similar to the opening of the superficial pathways, only these are the deep pathways, so the environment is different. Instead of opening the body, we open the mind and clear the obstructions within, allowing our innateness to manifest.

    remember, GENTLE, NATURALLY OCCURING PRACTICE. NO FORCING!

    CSP
    Last edited by Xiao3 Meng4; 05-11-2006 at 09:05 AM.
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  2. #17
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    spj has puked pea soup onto the face of the correct.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #18
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    but yea...i think the general concensus is that you should stop meditating until you find a teacher to correct your practice. sounds like your losing your mind dude.... no disrespect intended but take it very seriously.

    "better to reside in hell knowing the truth than to be blissfully ignorant in heaven."

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  4. #19
    what I meant to say.

    we have to clear our minds.

    we have to cleanse our hearts with no ill intent toward others.

    the ill intents will become evil thoughts over time.

    we become the demons.

    ---

    we are harmed by the ill intents we harbor.

    ---

    in short, we may choose to be god like, forgiving and loving etc, or demon like.

    It is a Q of choice or selection. The difference between being good or evil is only that between a thought with good or ill intent.

    ---

    see no evils, hear no evils, and do no evils etc etc

    ---

    Last edited by SPJ; 05-10-2006 at 06:20 PM.

  5. #20
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    I experienced "sleep paralysis" once. That's when you become conscious during deep sleep and can open your eyes. Most people can't move while dreaming which is why most people don't sleep walk. If you become conscious during that dream state (very rare) you will be unable to move. You're still dreaming so you can hallucinate.

    I felt like I was pulled out of my dream, my eyes could open and I saw my ceiling. (I was sleeping on my coach) I had a floating feeling, and felt like I was falling towards my feet. When I closed my eyes I saw a shadow hovering over me trying to stab me with a shadowy knife. I couldn't move (I big fear of mine by the way) so all I had to defend myself with was strength of will.

    Quite demon like. But just a dream.

    I've heard tale of a dude that saw garden gnomes running through his room. Very Ally Mcbeal like.
    Last edited by SanHeChuan; 05-10-2006 at 07:14 PM.
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  6. #21
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    the mind can manifest all sorts of fear.

    just remember that it's your mind that is doing it.
    You are doing it.

    we each create illusions in our mind both happy and terrible.

    It depends on what we believe, what we fear and so on.

    But spj has said this already more or less.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuXnDajenariht
    but yea...i think the general concensus is that you should stop meditating until you find a teacher to correct your practice.
    Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the consensus.

    Most people are giving their own two bits of cod meditation philosophy and rehashed tao/buddhism as usual on this forum when anybody has a problem and asks for advice.

    The OP said he has seen demons while meditating. Seeing (or 'meeting') things which are not there is not a philosophical/practical meditational problem, this is a form of psychosis.

    So, everyone giving meditational wisdom should shut the **** up and go and meditate on why they feel the need to express their egos in this way on a forum to a possibly seriously disturbed individual.

    And the thread starter should:

    1) Stop meditating.

    2) Go and see a qualified medical professional in psychology/psychiatry.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat
    Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the consensus.

    Most people are giving their own two bits of cod meditation philosophy and rehashed tao/buddhism as usual on this forum when anybody has a problem and asks for advice. ...
    And the thread starter should:

    1) Stop meditating.

    2) Go and see a qualified medical professional in psychology/psychiatry.
    Indeed. People seem to be addressing this as though these "demons" are metaphorical or an expected part of practice. Either psychosis is widespread on these forums, or a lot of people here are full of sh!t.

    Talking about how demons are just a manifestation of your mind is, by the way, not at all helpful. The hallucinations and delusions of a schizophrenic are manifestations of his or her mind, but a person suffering from schizophrenia cannot think their way out of the disease, and any attempt to do so simply delays getting the treatment that is needed.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanHeChuan
    I experienced "sleep paralysis" once. That's when you become conscious during deep sleep and can open your eyes. Most people can't move while dreaming which is why most people don't sleep walk. If you become conscious during that dream state (very rare) you will be unable to move. You're still dreaming so you can hallucinate.

    I felt like I was pulled out of my dream, my eyes could open and I saw my ceiling. (I was sleeping on my coach) I had a floating feeling, and felt like I was falling towards my feet. When I closed my eyes I saw a shadow hovering over me trying to stab me with a shadowy knife. I couldn't move (I big fear of mine by the way) so all I had to defend myself with was strength of will.

    Quite demon like. But just a dream.

    I've heard tale of a dude that saw garden gnomes running through his room. Very Ally Mcbeal like.
    I've had a couple of incidents of sleep paralysis before too. What's intriguing is that you never hear reports of people haveing a good dream during the event. Instead of a shadowy figure over you, etc. why can't it be Adriana Lima? It's interesting to me that all the reports are of evil and frightful feeleings and all of them are amazingly similar. I wonder why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  10. #25
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    Well, I think it shouldn't be surprising under the circumstances. By definition in sleep paralysis you have limited awareness and no intentional muscular control. Your brain is still partly in a dream state, having not been able to move through the full transition from REM sleep to waking, so your consciousness is, in a sense, compromised (you can't fully count on the reality of your perceptions).

    It has been speculated that, in the old days, accounts of experiences with incubi and succubi were possibly related to sleep paralysis, as are more modern accounts of encounters with aliens. If you think about it, the way people describe alien encounters really meshes well with sleep paralysis - waking to sensing presences in the room, not being able to move, etc...

    Anyway, if I ever have a sleep paralysis hallucination, I'd much rather mine be a sex demon than an alien.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  11. #26
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    I think the reason no one has happy dreams during sleep paralysis would be that it is an inherently frightening experience, so the fear manifests in these bad visions.

    Supposedly sleep paralysis can lead to astral projection, if the fear can be conquered.

    and if you believe in that. otherwise I guess it would lead to psychotic hallucinations.

    As far as the medical profession and mental illness go, I'll just say i don't put a lot of stock in their ability to "treat" it at all. Putting people on Zombie Meds is not making them well, it is making them addicted to Zombie Meds.

    but then in the case of someone who has descended into madness to the depth of becoming dangerous to themselves and/or others, what else are we to do?

    I guess chemical lobotomies are better than the icepick variety.


    I do have a question for you followers of the psychiatry faith...

    what would you recommend to someone having recurring nightmares?

    would you be as quick to say that they are likely very disturbed and in need of treatment?




    if someone enters a deep meditative state then their brainwaves can mimic that of deep sleep.


    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this...


    If this person is seeing "demons" in regular waking life, sure that's probably psychosis.


    but to jump to that in meditation is a bit of a leap. don't you think?


    is it maybe just possible he is having semi-waking dreams (nightmares) here?


    ok, now for my ego's 2 cents (the "medical advice" was in no way ego stroking though, was it guys? are you practicing pyschiatrists?)

    1. STOP MEDITATING

    2. Go to a park, get some fresh air.

    3. Maybe go to a museum or something relaxing.

    4. If hallucinations persist follow advice of the medical professionals.

    5. Try not to get hooked on Zombie Meds. Its bad stuff.
    Words!


    Just words!


  12. #27
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    i am a little long winded today

    lol well put Dwid. There are those that have a condition called a slow wave sleep disorder and are very "active" sleepers but they are the exception. In the majority od people the muscles paralyze as the brain waves speed up during the REM cycle (except, of course the involuntary mucles). There is a segment of the population that instead of the brain waves speeding up they slow down allowing the voluntary muscles to move. The condition usually isn't serious. but i used to date this girl for a bunch of years that had it. She used to sleep with her eyes open, sleep walk, sleep talk, but more alarming sleep punch. mostly the walls but sometimes me. (at least she said she was sleeping lol). but it was weird. she also had a tendency to scratch herself.

    anyway as for the actual topic of this forum i have been debating whether i wanted to weigh in. Just because a person hallucinates does not mean they are schizophrenic, though it is one of the most obvious clinical signs. There are 4 symptoms that constitute schizophrenia, flattened or inappropriate affect (emotion), hallucinations (almost always auditory but occasionally visual), delusions (paranoia, grandeur, persecution being the most common themes), and and unexplanable incommunicability (either they don't make any sense when they talk or they can't process what they are hearing). Now any of these individual symptoms can be explained by other circumstances (perhaps head trauma, a tumor, brain lesion, etc). what really sets a schizophrenic apart is the idea of insight into their illness. a schizophrenic does not realize what they are experiencing isn't real. even when they are told that. so jumping to a conclusion as significant as that is risky. also there is a condition known as schizophreneform (spell check) disorder which looks a lot like schizophrenia but unlike schizophrenia isn't a permanent disorder. it usually lasts about 6 months to a year. i guess its the difference between being chronic and accute.

    now whether this individual is able to discern that the hallucinations are real or not could go a long way to determine what is going on. whether the demons are real is a religious/ philosophical debate i have no intention of even touching.

    so with all of that said the only person that is going to be able to determine the mental well being (or not so well being) is a qualified physician. sure somethings are able to be dealt with on a faith base but other things need professional consultation. this does not mean this person is "crazy" it just means there is someone more qualified that can assist him/her.

    sorry for being long winded.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crushing Fist
    As far as the medical profession and mental illness go, I'll just say i don't put a lot of stock in their ability to "treat" it at all. Putting people on Zombie Meds is not making them well, it is making them addicted to Zombie Meds.

    but then in the case of someone who has descended into madness to the depth of becoming dangerous to themselves and/or others, what else are we to do?

    I guess chemical lobotomies are better than the icepick variety.


    I do have a question for you followers of the psychiatry faith...

    what would you recommend to someone having recurring nightmares?

    would you be as quick to say that they are likely very disturbed and in need of treatment?




    if someone enters a deep meditative state then their brainwaves can mimic that of deep sleep.


    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this...


    If this person is seeing "demons" in regular waking life, sure that's probably psychosis.

    Well, I'm a long-time student of psychology/psychiatric medicine who is also a buddhist/meditates. Believe it or not, I think mindfulness meditation can actually help people with even the most severe of psych diagnoses (like schizophrenia). However, it needs to be taught in a way that is appropriate to the patient and takes account of the problems inherent in such an illness. There is good research out there on mindfulness-based approaches to the treatment of a variety of psychiatric illnesses.

    Regarding the stuff on zombie meds, I do not intend to offend, but it sounds like the kind of stuff often spouted by people who have limited (if any) experience with working with people suffering from psychiatric illness. The atypical (newer) antipsychotic meds, when titrated appropriately to a patient, can often achieve therapeutic effects without the extreme side effects of the older meds. For some people, it is indeed a balancing act, in which the effects of the meds are only slightly better than the effects of the illness.

    Regarding the ego of the "psychiatry faith," it's really not the case. First, I believe meds are way overprescribed, and would rather rely on other treatment methods when at all possible. This is a problem both of patients and doctors. Patients want a quick fix just as badly as doctors want to have a billable patient that they only have to see for 15 minutes every three months to adjust dosages. I would much rather see a patient empowered to own their own recovery, so to speak. If there is faith to what I think regarding psych, it is faith in basic science - evidence based research in practice. Using anything else as a guideline for treating illness is simply fumbling in the dark.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  14. #29
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    Maybe the dude could describe the experience more completely? If for no other reason that to satisfy our curiosity.

    Judge Pen
    I've had a couple of incidents of sleep paralysis before too. What's intriguing is that you never hear reports of people having a good dream during the event. Instead of a shadowy figure over you, etc. why can't it be Adriana Lima? It's interesting to me that all the reports are of evil and frightful feelings and all of them are amazingly similar. I wonder why?
    Yeah, what Dwid and Crushing Fist said, not being able to move is scary. But evil succubi sex demon is my kind of scary. Some people pay for that kind of stuff. As long as there is sex with a hot girl involved, (and sometimes even the ugly ones too) it's a good dream.
    - 三和拳

    "Civilize the mind but make savage the body" Mao Tse Tsung

    "You're certainly intelligent enough to know how to be a good person without the lead weights of religious dogma." Serpent

    "There is no evidence that the zombie progeny of an incestuous space ghost cares what people do." MasterKiller

    "If there isn't a chance that you're going to lose in a fight, then you're not fighting tough enough competition." ShaolinTiger00

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwid
    Well, I'm a long-time student of psychology/psychiatric medicine who is also a buddhist/meditates. Believe it or not, I think mindfulness meditation can actually help people with even the most severe of psych diagnoses (like schizophrenia). However, it needs to be taught in a way that is appropriate to the patient and takes account of the problems inherent in such an illness. There is good research out there on mindfulness-based approaches to the treatment of a variety of psychiatric illnesses.
    Are you a follower of the Acceptance-Commitment Therapy school of thought? Your last post certainly leads me to think that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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