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Thread: Can meditation be dangerous (demons)?!

  1. #31
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    Acceptance-commitment has some good aspects. Hayes (its principal developer) is a radical behaviorist, though, which brings with it certain dogma. Also, I think in some respects, ACT is unnecessarily complex. Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, which is rooted in work by Jon Kabat-Zinn, is a lot simpler, and therefore probably easier to conceive of as implementable on a more widespread scale. Generally, I follow any decent research I can find on mindfulness based approaches to therapy, but I also don't see them as the holy grail. Often, the patient determines the therapy, and some patients just wouldn't be willing or able to get on board with a mindfulness based therapy.

    I guess in this sense I'm an advocate of eclecticism, but with the major caveat that it has to be an intelligent eclecticism. In other words, I'm not going to just randomly grab this or that therapy and see if it works. I look to the research to see what is most likely/more likely to be effective and go from there.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  2. #32
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    dwid -

    it sounds like you are one of the good ones


    one of the few good ones I would say

    Most of my experience with said "zombie meds" is not in anti-psychotics but rather anti-depressents, particularly SSNRI's and such.

    My experience with these is through more than one girlfriend being given these awful substances by people who in my opinion have no business practicing medicine at any capacity.

    The first one had hallucintations and severe depression (diagnosed as Borderline Personality Disorder) and she weighed around 90 lbs.

    she was being prescribed 800mg of Effexor a day, which was apparently the legal limit.

    I could tell you all kinds of stories about faked suicide attempts etc. but I'll spare you the gruesome details. Lets just say it left me with a bad impression of this drug.

    More recently we have Cymbalta (a newer fancier one) which was causing seizures in my current girlfriend. Since she didn't remember them she didn't believe they were happening (or at least claimed not to). Her "doctor" had put her on that and another one at the same time, while telling her that the other Anti-depressent was a "sleeping pill" (I looked it up, it wasn't. but sleeping was one of its side-effects) and told her she could take as many of those as she wanted...

    and this after telling the "doctor" that her mother had killed herself with sleeping pills.

    and the "doctor" didn't seem to take into account her thyroid disorder and that she is on synthroid, which there are warning about in the literature.


    These drugs are bad news.

    Did you hear the one about the college girl who was taking part in one of their studies for extra money? She had no history of any mental illness (she was in the "control group" or whatever). A couple of days after they switched her off of the stuff (I think this one was Cymbalta, but maybe it was another related drug) and onto a placibo, you know what happened?

    she hung herself.

    right there in their research lab.

    now all their ads have that part about "see a physician if you have suicidal thoughts"

    Once on that stuff, getting off is a real killer.
    Last edited by Crushing Fist; 05-11-2006 at 09:16 AM.
    Words!


    Just words!


  3. #33
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    Interesting. I breifly dated an ACT therapist. I had difficulty wrapping my little mind around all of the concepts so I'm glad to hear your assesment that it is unecessarily complex. (makes me feel less dumb).
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  4. #34
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    Yeah, antidepressants can be a big problem.

    First, like I said above, there is the issue of overprescribing, which applies to doctors and patients.

    Second, there is the issue of general practictioners/primary care providers prescribing these meds. Most general docs simply don't know enough about psychiatric medicine to really have any business prescribing this stuff. I think part of it comes down to a basic problem where lots of MD's just don't respect psychiatric medicine as valid, so they think psych meds are no big deal. Then you end up with people getting terrible side effects that are made worse by the fact that they were never warned about them. A friend of mine took Welbutrin to quit smoking and had severe and persistent panic attacks starting about 30 minutes after he took the first pill. He had no idea what was happening and hadn't been warned that this was a possible side effect. Pretty messed up.

    Still, some people need antidepressents, and some of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) have demonstrated significantly fewer side effects in most people than their predecessor drugs. The key is, if you don't absolutely need drug therapy, don't have it.

    As far as the incidence of suicide, it's well-established that the most dangerous time for a person with severe depression is when they're starting to come out of the depressive episode. In the midst of a severe episode, most people lack the energy or drive to carry out a suicide attempt. However, as they start to feel a little better, the impulse might still be there coupled with the newfound capacity to act on it. In the case you described, obviously, there is something else going on, but it is plain irresponsible research to leave a patient unmonitored when coming off a relatively untested drug.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen
    Interesting. I breifly dated an ACT therapist. I had difficulty wrapping my little mind around all of the concepts so I'm glad to hear your assesment that it is unecessarily complex. (makes me feel less dumb).
    Yeah, I think it's really a side effect of Hayes' monster ego. Instead of reducing the therapy to its basic components and then maybe explaining it in terms of behaviorist theory, he had to tie it in to all this radical behaviorism stuff he had been developing over the years. To be fair, the guy is pretty much a genius, and a prolific researcher in clinical psych, but he's also a bit of a douchebag.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  6. #36
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    yeah it was cymbalta...


    I looked a bunch of this stuff when she was having the seizures



    When the body of a 19-year-old student, Traci Johnson, was found hanging from a shower rod in the laboratories of pharmaceuticals giant Eli Lilly, US officials were quick to announce that the death could not be linked to a new anti-depressant drug she was helping to test.

    During her stay at the hotel-cum-clinic in Indiana known as the Lilly Lab, Johnson had been taking part in trials for a secret new formula called Cymbalta, a chemical cousin of Prozac, which the company hoped would guarantee huge profits for years to come.

    For the drugs giant, her death on 7 February last year was an "isolated tragedy" that did not prevent it from pressing ahead with the Cymbalta trials. It is now on sale in the US and - under another name - in Europe and the UK.

    But for the scientific community it was another warning bell about a class of medicines already under scrutiny for possible ties to suicide. After all, Johnson was not depressed. Far from it. She enrolled in the clinical trial as a healthy volunteer in order to earn money to pay for her college tuition. Anyone with signs of depression was excluded.

    Now, medical researchers attempting to establish the truth about Cymbalta are asking why her disturbing and very public suicide is completely absent from the official record, at least as it is released to academics and the public. According to an investigation by The Independent on Sunday, this and at least four other suicides by volunteers have been hidden by the US regulators, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

    As the FDA admits, even a young woman's death counts as a commercial secret in the world of pharmaceuticals.


    sick.


    just plain sick.
    Words!


    Just words!


  7. #37
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    Yeah, that's pretty effed up. No surprise that the pharm company would do its best to bury something like this, though.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwid
    Yeah, I think it's really a side effect of Hayes' monster ego. Instead of reducing the therapy to its basic components and then maybe explaining it in terms of behaviorist theory, he had to tie it in to all this radical behaviorism stuff he had been developing over the years. To be fair, the guy is pretty much a genius, and a prolific researcher in clinical psych, but he's also a bit of a douchebag.
    Wow, and all that time I was told he could walk on water. When I was dating her, she went to one of the ACT retreats and was telling me about some of their excercises etc. Gotta admit, it soulded a little weird to me.

    CF, where did you get the quote on cymbalta? It doesn't sound like it was written by the AP. I may be in the minority here, but I don't think pharm companies are evil. I think medicines are over used in situations, but the good thats come from medicines far out-weigh the bad.

    And, back OT, I'm sure we could give all the demon see'ers a little pill to make the bifurcated tails go away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen
    Wow, and all that time I was told he could walk on water. When I was dating her, she went to one of the ACT retreats and was telling me about some of their excercises etc. Gotta admit, it soulded a little weird to me.
    I actually interviewed with him when I was applying to grad school. It was one of those experiences of extreme disillusionment, as about 2 minutes in I went from him being the top guy on my list to work with to being absolutely sure I didn't want to have anything to do with him. I kind of got the feeling you describe with this girl from his students that I talked to, and he has a really strong personality, so maybe some people just get really wrapped up in it. To be honest, given his interest in mindfulness and the perspectives on treatment in his writings, I expected him to be very humble and respectful of applied psychology - I found him to be neither.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  10. #40
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    JP-

    the original article was

    Independent on Sunday, The, Jun 19, 2005 by Jeanne Lenzer


    a London newspaper




    but its been copied all over the web



    another from "The Newyorker"


    Indeed, Eli Lilly and Company recently received a tremendous amount of bad press when Traci Johnson, an Indiana college student, committed suicide during a clinical trial of Cymbalta, an antidepressant. She had initially been given high doses of Cymbalta, but a few days before her death she had been switched to a placebo. Scientists have found that hallucinations and paranoid delusions can occur when a patient is in withdrawal from an antidepressant. A spokesman for Lilly has stated that it is unclear what led to the girl’s suicide; the F.D.A. officially cleared the company of wrongdoing and approved the drug.

    Johnson’s death occurred at the same time that the F.D.A. was analyzing a large set of data compiled from multiple clinical trials. The results, which were released in October, indicated that twice as many children taking antidepressants in clinical trials considered or attempted suicide as children taking placebos. The agency will require pharmacists to include a warning, to be released later this month, that cites this study when dispensing packages of antidepressants. Although antidepressants can still be legally administered to children, the children must now be stringently monitored by doctors.
    Words!


    Just words!


  11. #41
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    An inference can be made for the facts of the article, but it hardly reeks of causation. I wonder what the qualifications of the trial were. I would bet that every person in the trial had pre-existing psych issues. Under those circumstances it's really hard to say if the drug was the cause of the suicidial ideation that lead to the act or if the woman would have eventually killed herself independant of the drug.

    I guess it boils down to if you trust the FDA's investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen
    An inference can be made for the facts of the article, but it hardly reeks of causation. I wonder what the qualifications of the trial were. I would bet that every person in the trial had pre-existing psych issues. Under those circumstances it's really hard to say if the drug was the cause of the suicidial ideation that lead to the act or if the woman would have eventually killed herself independant of the drug.
    An interesting sidenote is that some recent research suggests that suicidality as a trait is actually a separate and distinct form of pathology with high comorbidity with (rather than caused by) some mood disorders like major depression. Thus, some people may be predisposed to attempting/committing suicide without showing depressive symptoms.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  13. #43
    Hello Gentlemen,

    Please allow me to add some thoughts.

    I have worked 4 years as a psychiatric nurse. The “zombie” drugs are for the most part not used anymore. If they are used they are carefully controlled and are generally not given to outpatients. Thorazine is the most prominent “zombie” medication. The methodology commonly used for acute psychotic episodes is to over medicate a patient in order to control destructive/harmful behavior then titre the medication down over a week or two until the therapeutic dosage is obtained. The purpose is to use the minimal amount of medication in order to obtain the most beneficial therapeutic effect. Since each person has a different biology and personality not all medications affect individuals in the same manner. Therapeutic dosages also vary over time according to the mental state and biology each the patient. It is not uncommon to repeatedly change medications as the patient accommodates to the medication as well. This occurs for the same reason the body accommodates to caffeine and alcohol. If you recall when you first started to drink beer it only took one or two beers to get a buzz, but after some years of consumption it now takes 4 or 5 or a dozen beers to get the same buzz. This is because the body accommodates (a fancy word for “gets used too”) to the alcohol. The same occurs with medications. Once the body accommodates to the medication effectiveness declines and either a larger dosage is required or a different medication will be prescribed.

    For the most part I agree that medications should be avoided if possible or used in declining amounts over time until they are no longer required. This is best accomplished in accordance with an effective therapeutic program. Unfortunately most therapeutic programs are designed around the training and preference of the facility or therapist and not the needs of the patient. In my opinion the most effective therapy is the one that accommodates the personality, temperament and needs of the patient. This seldom occurs in my experience. In some instances an individual may require long term treatment with medication in order to remain socially functional. One of the problems with our society is we seem to attempt to avoid any discomfort at all. It is this desire to avoid any discomfort that leads people to utilize medication. Medication is a short term temporary solution to a long term problem in many cases. Therapy can take years; medication is the easy solution wherein the individual does not have to take responsibility for themselves and their issues.

    The best method of resolving one’s personal issues is to introspect into the mind. As with most phenomena, minds function in similar, but slightly different patterns. Therefore, there are similar but different patterns that occur during the process of introspection. The best therapists are the ones who have introspected into their own minds to resolve their own issues because they understand the processes of the mind that occur from a direct perspective. Therapists who have not ventured far enough down this path are not as equipped as those who have and are therefore less effective therapists. It is no different than a spiritual guide really. Someone who has been down the path is the one most equipped to guide a beginner.

    To understand ones own mind is the path to resolving most or all of one’s personal issues. The demons that may be experienced during meditation are merely projections from our own minds. They frequently occur because of personal issues caused by the conditioning of the mind.

    By “conditioning of the mind” I am referring to the perspective with which we perceive the world which is influenced by the environment we have grown up in. Our personal worldview/perspective originates partially from our innate temperament, but also from this early conditioning. Consider the half glass of water; is it half full or half empty? An inherently negative person will tend towards viewing the glass as half empty, while an inherently positive person will tend to view the glass as half full. This example illustrates how one’s perspective will influence their perception and interpretation of phenomena and thereby influence the quality of their experiences. This is a minor example, but mental programming also determines what we will allow ourselves to perceive and influence how we will interpret the experience as well. A simple exercise to demonstrate this can be performed. Choose your favorite car or maybe just decide you want to notice motorcycles; while you drive around town throughout the following days and weeks use this intention to program your mind to perceive the vehicles that you desire to notice. It will seem to you that all of a sudden there are more of these particular vehicles on the road. This is not the case, you have merely programmed your mind to perceive the vehicles so it “APPEARS” there more of them. We perceive that which we wish to perceive or have been programmed to perceive or have programmed ourselves to perceive. How we interpret what we perceive is determined by how we have been conditioned to interpret our experiences as well. So to one person a meditative experience may reveal something he would call a demon while to another a similar manifestation is merely a projected (personified) personality issue, to another it is a minor distraction, while still another might not recognize the manifestation as significant in anyway. This same principle applies to nightmares in some cases. Dreams serve a number of purposes. One of which is too express mental states that lie beneath our consciousness. It is a sort of safety valve designed to express emotional energy. This serves a therapeutic purpose. Stored or repressed emotional energy is unhealthy so the mind/body attempts to release the energy in a safe manner. Reoccurring similar nightmares tend to have a message within them that are meant to express a personal issue or draw attention to something your subconscious mind wishes the conscious mind to be aware of and address.

    So demons/hallucinations within the circumstance referred to above are merely projections of personal issues or manifestations of the worldview of the meditator. That is not to say they are not real per se! They are real for that individual and are therefore not necessarily hallucinations as the term is commonly defined within the medical community. The most common method, within the medical community, of dealing with hallucinations is to eliminate them rather than to understand their message. (I am referring here to incidences that are NOT caused by brain dysfunction, which is a genetic or organic deficiency of brain chemicals.) How we choose to react to and interpret these experiences will determine the over all value/benefit we gain from the experience. They are feared because we don’t understand them. Once we gain understanding the fear will disappear.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwid
    An interesting sidenote is that some recent research suggests that suicidality as a trait is actually a separate and distinct form of pathology with high comorbidity with (rather than caused by) some mood disorders like major depression. Thus, some people may be predisposed to attempting/committing suicide without showing depressive symptoms.

    Interesting. So one can be pre-deposed to suicidal ideations without being pre-desposed for depression? But yet people who are pre-deposed to depression also show a higher rate of suicide, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  15. #45
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    Interesting perspectives. It always bothered me that people (including my cynical self) are so dismissive of certain experiences (yet I subscribe to the thought that I must experience something to believe it) but yet our own reality is nothing more thatn the electrical impressions as interpreted by our mind. So what' real and what isn't? Sci-Fi has made a killing with playing with these very notions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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