I can taste colors.
demons were once angels after all. i guess it depends on whether the person gets the kind of help hes seeking and how he uses and handles that help. of course if his wishes all come to fruition well an angel was sent from above to help him, but if it doesn't hes more likely to blame satan for his misfortunes.
sorta like that saying god gives you what u need and not what u want?
or whats that other one? the best of intentions pave the way to hell or some such thing.
"better to reside in hell knowing the truth than to be blissfully ignorant in heaven."
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."- Doug Adams
I dare you to make less sense!
"Freeze?! You know if i drop the tooth fairy i'm only gettin' started mother****er!"
"It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin
dead mother laughing
The Forum according to themselves and The Forum according to someone else
Its kind of like a weird philosophy cult...
Something called an LGAT (large group awareness training)
They use a lot of circular double speak and one of the main points is that to do it properly you have to tell other people about it and invite them to do it too.
The forum lasts 3 days where a forum leader guides the group through western philosophy culminating in Nihilism with Sartre. The effect is to leave the group questioning everything with their sense of the worth of life destroyed, and then they have to take the advanced forum to get their self-worth back
I did this with my girlfriend as a favor to her (so she didn't have to go alone)
the first two days everyone has these "amazing transformational experiences" and there is lots of crying and bonding...grown men and women whimpering about their awful childhood, I hated all that.
Then day three they drop a bomb on these fragile wounded souls telling them how nothing means anything... but more importantly it doesn't mean anything that it doesn't mean anything.
Everyone who loved the forum up to there freaks out, and rails against this notion. Their worlds come crashing down around them.
I was in fits of laughter at this point
The Landmark Education Center is notorious for using harrassment to get members into the fold, calling you and trying to pressure you into taking more of their classes.
They never called me even once... the cult didn't want me!
Words!
Just words!
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You can't keep a good idea down. Or sumfink.Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
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The reason I suggest seeking professional help is that I've met besides my uncle and father several people who went nuts. 3 of whom wound up in the mental hospital, completely disfunctional.
Therefore, I don't idly give you the recommendation to seek professional help for these people. Because, if you don't, the consequences could be worse later down the road.
If you want your friends to wind up in the hospital, and damaged for life, then I guess don't do anything at all. Your choice, right?
You call me a narcicisstic 2 year old. Well watching your friends go nuts isn't exactly fun. Watching your friends dress themselves in sheets while they slather themselves with peanut butter, or talk about how they have proof their wife is a witch because it's written in tiny letters on a piece of metal that they can see with a microscope, or say that cancelling their housing insurance, health insurance, etc., because they have had visions of Satan. Well, it isn't exactly pleasant.
So, whatever. You yourself seem pretty convinced so why are you asking questions on here if you aren't seeking anything?
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Quite true, and as brother Fist points out this idea began before Hui-Neng, but I like the old fella because he was illiterate and an average person who "got it" Kinda gives us all a little hopeYou can't keep a good idea down. Or sumfink.
Der Arm Wachsend!
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Hi Crushing Fist,
It sounds as it the Forum is nothing more than a rehashed psycho-scam from the late 60’s and early 70’s! Remember EST? Their psychological games of breaking down an individual’s worldview and self-concept in order to rebuild it in their own image sounds very much like a cult!
I suspect Nietzsche’s definition of metaphysics/mysticism is incomplete. He does not seem to understand metaphysics/mysticism as they are properly practiced and may be addressing the misguided pursuits of those who are seeking powers and abilities rather than knowledge. Mystical knowledge is for the purpose of enhancing the quality of ones experiences. It is nothing more than learning, understanding and applying the inherent underlying rules of existence sometimes referred to as the principles of Tao!
Use or uselessness of knowledge is not limited to the specific context provided by Nietzsche’s example of the sailor and a storm. Life is not so two dimensional. To me his illustrative example does not make his point because he limits the context so unreasonably that life cannot submit too his limits. He further controls the illustration by limiting the definition or misunderstanding the underlying purpose of metaphysics/mysticism.
A ship sailing at sea is not a comprehensive metaphor for all the verities of life! The context of Nietzsche’s example may lead the individual to conclude that Nietzsche considers life similar to a storm. That is, fraught with struggle, fear and danger. Life may be experienced in this manner to be sure, but there is no requirement for life to be interpreted in this manner.
The best he can say is the chemical composition of the water is not necessary information under the limited circumstances of a storm. However, knowledge of the other qualities of water, wind and the properties and abilities of the ship do matter. We can argue these are operative properties and that can not be denied, however they are only operative within the context of a ship sailing at sea as defined by his example, not for life in general. If we correlate knowledge of the properties of wind, sea and ship to the knowledge of the properties and processes of life (Tao), which is one purpose of philosophical metaphysics/mysticism then we will see that inner knowledge DOES assist us in navigating the storms of life and therefore HAS an operative benefit!
To discover how knowledge of metaphysics/mysticisms may be of operative benefit within his example let us consider the benefits obtained from the study of Philosophical Taoism and Zen.
It is the context with which we choose to perceive life that determines how we will respond to life’s challenges and thereby the quality of our life. For example, a person who is afraid to die will react to circumstances differently than one with no fear. Fear clouds the mind and influences our judgments in a manner detrimental to achieving our goal. Over confidence and arrogance creates limitations of performance as well. One of the reasons many samurai studied Zen was because they recognized it as a means to assist them in successfully performing their duties. Warriors at this level understood that to fear death in combat reduces one’s potential for survival and success in battle. When one fears death a portion of their mind will be focused upon preserving their safety. This fear of death divides the mind against itself diminishing the amount of mental focus available for accomplishing the desired goal. To be fearless one must be detached from the desire to maintain safety. The samurai discovered that when they realigned their perspective and integrated it comprehensively they not only tended to fulfill their duties more efficiently, but they were also more likely to survive in conflict. After all, the training and maintenance of a samurai was a financial investment not to be needlessly squandered.
A detached perspective enhances ones physical and mental abilities increasing the opportunity for success. Under these circumstances the effective application of metaphysical/mystic knowledge provides the operative quality required. Metaphysical/mystical understanding keeps events within a context that allows the individual to remain emotionally detached from the circumstance, freeing up the mind to focus on the task at hand and remain intuitively responsive to unpredictable changes in circumstance. Think of it as bandwidth. The quality of my internet connection is reduced when the bandwidth is limited. Fear interferes with mental bandwidth reducing mental and physical function and interferes with the reception of intuitive information. This decreases the chances of succeeding at the task at hand, which in Nietzsche’s example is saving my A$$, my ship and my crew. It the captain had bothered to practice a bit of mysticism he would find he is better able to navigate the storms of sea and life. His knowledge of how hydrogen combines with oxygen is useless under his example, but the knowledge of the deeper perspectives of life and application of the principles learned are his saving grace when life’s circumstances becomes too big to handle using conventional techniques.
In my example the sea captain with mystical understanding becomes ONE with the storm. This enables him to sense intuitively how to respond to the unpredictable circumstances provided by the storm and to move in accord with the energy of the storm. That is, to flow with the energy of the storm rather than against it. All successful sailors learn to do this, however when this ability is combined with emotional detachment responses are intuited and are therefore more successful. The captain’s state of mind increases or decreases his opportunity for survival. It would behoove him to have practiced a means for increasing his opportunity for survival. He accomplishes this through mystical studies wherein he learns to be emotionally detached under extreme circumstances thus enhancing intuitive ability and his probability of survival. If he dies he is not emotionally concerned because he views death as nothing more than a transition between states of being similar to moving to a new town and making new friends and not as an emotionally tragic event. This is the same quality of life attained by master samurai who practice Zen.
This internal quality of life is well known throughout Asian culture and is actively cultivated utilizing daily activities such as the tea ceremony, gardening, painting, marital arts, architecture, calligraphy etc. The highest skill is always attained by those with mystical insight and the quality of the products produced by these individuals has always been highly valued within Asian culture. Herein lies another operative benefit.
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The illustration of the red room was intended to demonstrate value or “inner quality” more than operative usefulness. How is value/quality a benefit? If I am a sailor and I am going down in a storm, my understanding that life is but a dream changes the quality of my experience and influences the possibility of my dying. The personal trauma of the event is cast within a different context and the negative quality of the event loses its extreme meaning and therefore its emotional impact. The sailor with this understanding is at peace with the event and while he may strive to survive, the quality of his experience is enhanced by his detached state of mind. This is a quality of a higher order than the quality experienced by a sailor with emotional attachments to life. So it provides more than just a pleasant feeling, but changes the entire quality of ones life and enhances ones performance increasing the likelihood of survival. This type of individual is not emotionally attached to transient physical phenomena or circumstances because he recognizes they are un-necessary to contentment.
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Some of us concern ourselves with knowledge of the eternal because that is our inclination. No one with any reasonable level of understanding would insist that anyone else concern themselves with something they are not interested in. Those who perceive a benefit will pursue the field of knowledge; those who are not interested will pursue their own interests and as with everything else in life, both will reap rewards and/or detriments as a natural consequence of their chosen pursuit.
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I am not sure it is important that one experiences metaphysical phenomena within their daily lives. It is how they apply the knowledge and understanding to their daily lives that increases or decreases the quality of their life and that is what is important.
I agree that any knowledge gained is most likely filtered through the individual’s personality/ego. This is not necessarily a flaw. I see it as purposefully designed into the system. We are all merely facets of the jewel of life each reflecting our perceptions according to our own personal perspective, each adding to the quality of life of the gestalt of our consciousnesses through our unique perspectives
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The distinction between benefit and harm is in the eye of the beholder and not inherent to the experience. It is how a person chooses to view an event, the perspective from which they view it, that will determines whether they will consider the event beneficial or detrimental. Two people may experience a similar event, but it is how they will choose to define the event for themselves which will determine the quality of the event for each.
Here is an example I used quite some time ago. To a rapier fighter in 17th and 18th century Germany a scar to his face was a sign of his manliness, something that would bring him distinction and respect from his peers. When he received a scar to his face it was considered a beneficial event. To a modern fashion model the same scar might be considered a detrimental event because it could affect her self-concept, her status as a model and her financial future. Both individuals receive the same type of facial scar, but both react to it differently based upon the personal values they bring to the event.
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In regards to the demon/guardian spirit:
I found the example somewhat lacking as well, but we all have time constraints and at some point time runs short so we are left with a weaker than desired illustration.
We are presuming that a demon is intending to harm us and that harm is always bad. Harm is really only an event or experience I would prefer not to occur. While it is true that the definition of a demon includes malicious harm, this is merely a definition and we are not bound to it. The definition is not the thing. My Kung Fu instructor banging me in the head is unpleasant, but he is “playing” the bad guy for my overall benefit. So by understanding the lesson a “demon” has to teach I am provided with a beneficial result. Since beneficial results are generally considered the purview of guardian angels I could conceivably consider the demon a guardian angel as a consequence of the beneficial lesson he provided me.
Your argument also presumes harm is always detrimental. I cited an example or two wherein a seemingly detrimental/unpleasant event turned out beneficial in the long run. When an event occurs that we consider unfavorable we are judging the event from within a limited context. By changing my perspective I now understand how some of the things my father made me do as a child were a benefit to me. When I was a child I did not have this understanding and so considered his discipline harmful, but from the perspective I view the events now I can see how they influenced behaviors that provide now me with desirable consequences.
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We may not know for certain that our metaphysical selves are beyond harm (whatever harm really is since harm is in the eye of the beholder), but we cannot assume that it is impossible to have direct knowledge of this just because you and I are presently unable to directly apprehend the knowledge for ourselves. But as a consequence of your question you have made a rather good argument for pursuing metaphysical/mystical knowledge and understanding now and not dawdling about it.
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Okay, sorry. I read back through the posts again and you were the one saying you met people possessed. I got you confused with Bel for a minute there.
Okay, fine, yes some people in my family are nutso (2 of them). Well, you're the one saying you believe in possession and met people who were possessed. All I'm saying is that you might want to seek professional help for the people you met who were possessed, because there's no such thing as demons.
Anyway, I have enough problems with my relatives and my crazy uncle's meth problem, so whatever.
Ayatollah of Rock'n'rolla
Yeah, I confused you with Bel as well... long thread.
As far as offering solace to Bel because of your "actual experience," it's generally unwise to feed into someone's delusion/hallucination by validating it.
And if there is an accusatory tone to talk of mental illness here, it is in your head. You're the only one I've noticed so far who writes about "insanity" in a way that implies a strong stigma associated with it. I no more accuse Bel of being mentally ill than I would accuse someone of having cancer. Both represent disease processes that are in no way the fault of the person suffering from them. When you use words like "crazy" you contribute to the social stigma associated with mental illness and therefore contribute to the forces that keep so many people who need help from being willing to get help.
The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers
dead mother laughing
Again, very eloquently put...
but
let us perhaps more clearly define what it is we are talking about.
First the sea captain.
Let us say that life is a journey. This is a fairly common analogy.
Let us then liken this journey to a long sea voyage.
Most of our voyage will be fairly calm, but it is almost certain that a voyage on the open ocean of life will at some point or another run up against stormy weather or other difficulties. This is the context defined. We are each the captain of our own ship on the voyage of life.
Now to be specific, the analogy was that knowledge of any metaphysical world would be of no real use. Not that no Metaphysical/Mystical knowledge would be of any use.
To examine the things you describe:
The captain becomes ONE with the storm
the storm is a physical manifestation of this world, and to become one with it, although it may require a certain type of "Mystical Knowledge" would not entail knowledge of some other world (Heaven/Hell or any other depiction of an afterlife or other plane of existence)
It is in fact a subtle knowledge of THIS world
This is true of all the other examples (tea ceremony, gardening, painting, marital arts, architecture, calligraphy etc.) as well. These are acts which a thorough or even mystical contemplation of our own current embodiment and existence will aid. But knowledge of some other Metaphysical world? How could that aid these endeavors?
Certainly all Zen and Taoist texts I have read involve nothing more than contemplation of this existence, how it comes into being, and the ways in which it works. The ideas of Yin and Yang for instance, are based on direct observation of this world, not some other. Zen meditation is to be present in this moment, not to engage in considering some other world.
Now on the topic of Fear
this is a natural and vital response which keeps us alive.
without fear we could not survive in this world.
However, to have this fear and understand it, and as you say be detatched from it, can only improve one's chances for survival.
but does this detachment come from knowing of some other world, or from a true and clear understanding of this one?
Last edited by Crushing Fist; 05-15-2006 at 08:53 AM.
Words!
Just words!
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This is a really good point, because I had a talk this weekend with my aunt about my uncle.
She said that he had a big accident at one point, ran into a tree, which required CAT scans. They found this growth in his head, in his brain, a small spur like thing in his frontal lobe. Basically, the doctors think that his mental illness is due to this spur thing. And his drug use is partly self medication. He's on antipsychotic drugs, but they only work so much.
There's not much you can do about a growth in your head, beyond trying to treat it. We don't know what will happen to him.
So when I say you might want to seek professional help, it's not out of some stigma. Mental illness is a very bad thing.
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Your brain is a bunch of chemicals, etc. People who are insane have a problem with their brain, chemicals, etc.
Yes, psychologists don't know everything. Psychiatrists don't know everything.
BUT, when these people go nuts they wind up in the hospital. So dealing with the matter before they wind up in the hospital might be appropriate.
From what I've come across there are weak people who can't deal with life or drugs. Why, who knows. My personal hypothesis is that they have birth defects or genetic mutations, or a lack of nutrition or their mothers didn't have good nutrition.
Certain things, like a poor diet, stress, drugs and things like that can deplete the bodies stores of neurological component precursors. When that happens, the brain doesn't function correctly, and the person can have problems. Depression, etc., can just be a part of this.
The reason I say this is that everybody I've known that went nuts so far, had either a lot of stress, a poor diet, or did drugs. All of these things have been shown to deplete nutrients in the body. Not to mention drugs can tax the neurons and hyperexcitation of neurons can inhibit things like serotonin production.
The brain is just another part of the body. If it doesn't get what it needs, then it breaks.
So, yes, a lot of the drugs they give act the same as the bad drugs. They are not necessarily the answer, but not dealing with the problem is worse because a person can wind up hurting themselves or others.
Examples of people I knew who had a problem due to drug use/poor nutrition.
My best friend in college was a Hunter S. Thompson fanatic, he would go around and try to do all the crazy things that Hunter S. Thompson did. A ton of partying, drugs including pot, LSD, ecstasy, heroin, and cocaine.
He wound up extremely depressed, didn't want to go outside, didn't want to talk to anybody, and the only thing that helped somewhat was anti-depressant medication.
Drug using uncle. He did a ton of alcohol and drugs. Mostly pot, but also cocaine and anything else he could get his hands on. Wound up having a complete break where he thought his wife was a witch and proof was in a piece of metal, that machines talked to him, that the computer when not plugged in was spying on him, that the CIA was out to get him, etc. My aunt claims he is this way because of a brain defect, but I'm not so sure.
My dad, who didn't eat very much at all, (his idea of a balanced meal was a PB&J sandwich on white bread). Totally stressed out about many things, had a complete nervous system meltdown, almost wound up in the hospital, but claimed to 'Find God'. Claims visions of Satan, claims that he knows he has to cancel all his insurances, not go to the doctor, etc.
One woman that I knew who was a martial arts fanatic, and anorexic. She hardly ever ate. She got her black belt in like 1.5 years. She practiced literally 4-6 hours a day, and more on weekends, in addition to a full-time job before she had a complete psychotic melt-down and quit her job, quit martial arts, and started watching movies all day. Finally, she was found rolling around on the kitchen floor calling out in a little girl's voice. She had to be taken to the mental hospital. 6 months later she was still completely disfunctional.
These are just some examples. Demons DON'T EXIST. People who claim to see these things ARE CRAZY. It's not rocket science here.
I can taste colors.
the problems seems to be that neither of you are listening to each other. you both have points......
"better to reside in hell knowing the truth than to be blissfully ignorant in heaven."
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."- Doug Adams
I dare you to make less sense!
"Freeze?! You know if i drop the tooth fairy i'm only gettin' started mother****er!"
"It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin
Ayatollah of Rock'n'rolla
It is not, however, unwise to suggest the possibility that someone might be suffering from mental illness and that they should seek out a professional who can better make that determination. I made no attempt to definitively diagnose, nor did anyone else. That would be silly.
The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers
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If I could boil down his arguments, they seem to be:
a) It's impossible to know it all. Therefore, why discount the possibility that (demons) exist?
b) Psychologists don't know everything. Therefore, they don't understand how to deal with (demons).
c) Don't call people crazy just because they believe in something (demons) that don't fit within society's definition of sanity.
My basic argument is:
a) Okay, I'm not claiming to know it all.
b) The people that I knew that said they believed in demons or had visions of Satan, etc., at that time, or later, eventually exhibited behavior that was bad for them or others. (What I am calling crazy).
c) Since people who seem to believe in these things exhibit bad behavior, maybe you should deal with the problem before they get worse.
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