Tai Chi is fast, REALLY FAST.

[imperialtaichi]

Hung-gar, taiji, MMA fighters, etc., are relatively slow.

This is a common misconception.

When I do the form, although externally I look snail paced, I am actually doing it as fast as I possibly can.

How? For example, lets look at the "Da Fu Si (Hitting Tiger Posture)" or another name for it, "Fu Gu Si (Supressing Bird Posture)". Externally, it just looks like I simply moved into Gong Bu while raising my left elbow. But actually, apart from the physical movement one can see, within that 1 second, I am doing (without physically showing it):

1. lowering my centre of gravity
2. swallowing the force through my chest
3. redirecting it to my Jia Ji point on my back
4. dispersing any excessive force
5. expanding the jia ji point
6. sending out my intention
7. sending out a silk thread through the jia ji
8. coiling the thread from my left hand, sharp turing back to the right, drawing power from right Yong Quen upwards, have the power and the thread united and wrap round my body/waist 1.5 times as a 1m diameter imaginery double helix, then round up to my left elbow
9. sending the silk and power out to meet the intention point
10. dissipitate the power
11. then, and only then, that my left elbow get risen aligned with the thread.

This is just a brief description, with more to look after in actual fact. And each step has to be done very precisely, without skipping over any detail.

And all the other movements has it's own method of energetics.

So if one understands the amount of work we have to go through just to move an elbow properly, one would realise how FAST we are actually doing our form.

Cheers,
John

[Blacktiger]

We have a Wudang tai chi set in our system that can be practised both fast and slow.....By fast I dont mean flat stick though

[WOW]

I think the misconception is everywhere and important aspects are lost. Its not question about speed, is more of a question how fast you can....

Controlling your breath/chi via the dan tin and focusing with your intent to parts of the body determines how fast you can present the body movements. If you puch as fast as you can without controlling your breath/chi then its simiply muscles and the core and foundations are underutilised.

[jon]

Physical speed is meaningless when you already know what someone is thinking and what there going to do.

The trick is being able to respond to change more fluidly and more effectively than your opponent.


"The opponent moves first, yet i arrive before him."


* Usual disclaimer: Just my opinion and not natural law, if you (the reader) dont agree then cool, please post why. Just please dont chew my head off for posting something you dont like or dont want to hear.

[Hunt]

This brings up a ? that I had. I'm relativly new to Tajiquan..about a year into it. Obviously you have to speed up your movements when your sparring with someone. I know the importance of practicing my form slow, but I usually throw in a fast set after I go through it twice. It really helps me feel bits of the form where I really need to work on keeping my center. It also helps me visulise my applications better. I guess my question is: How do you incorporate speed into your practice?

[imperialtaichi]

How do you incorporate speed into your practice?

By speeding up the internal changes and expression of the mind.

For example:

If someone chain punch/kick you very fast, the last thing you want to do is to match speed with the opponent. However, if you understand how to read/listen to his Yi Chi, it is usually not very difficult to touch him on the arm, or on the body. Basically, you just have to contact him.

But within the split second of you touching him, you must control him very quickly otherwise his punches/kicks would be coming (the methods are all written very clearly in the Tai Chi Classics". You must NOT manipulate him with force, because if he knows martial arts, he can feel it and redirect it. You must NOT manipulate him with movements, because he is faster than you. The only way is to manipulate him with something so subtle he cannot resist, which is the Shen Yi Qi unification. Net result? The opponent get propelled out with seemingly no physical effort and movement. To a third person observing this could often look "unreal". Hence people often appreciate medium level Tai Chi. But when they see the real thing, many would not be able to comprehend and be regarded as "fake".

That is why we practice the mind. And the way the body reacts to the mind is instantaneous and seemingly motionless. Fast minds, therefore, is more important than fast bodies.

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

how fast is Tai Chi?

As the classics said:

store your Jin as if drawing a bow.

release your Jin as if shooting an arrow.

Xu Jin Lu Zhang Gong.

Fa Jin Si Fan Jian.

or like a sudden thunder or Hu Lei.

--

[bamboo_ leaf]

(That is why we practice the mind. And the way the body reacts to the mind is instantaneous and seemingly motionless. Fast minds, therefore, is more important than fast bodies.)

very nice John

[qiphlow]

"Fast minds, therefore, is more important than fast bodies."
--imperialtaichi


And THAT is precisely what is becoming more and more apparent the more i practice. An EXCELLENT point! Thank you.

[neilhytholt]

No offense, but where are the good Tai Chi fighters?

[imperialtaichi]

No offense, but where are the good Tai Chi fighters?

None taken

As I always say, the total fighting ability of a person is the sum of

External Strength + Internal Strength + Techniques
PLUS how willing the individual is in participating in a fight.
(Personally, I'm not that interested in competitions)

And I hold a lot of respect for other martial arts too. Some of my best friends are Wing Chunners, Bagua'ers, BJJers etc and I think they are very effective martial arts as well.

As I also say, I am always open for people to look me up, cross some hands with me and share some ideas. I still find the training in Tai Chi pretty useful in handling myself, even when the opponent is pretty much bigger than myself.

Cheers,
John

[neilhytholt]

None taken

As I always say, the total fighting ability of a person is the sum of

External Strength + Internal Strength + Techniques
PLUS how willing the individual is in participating in a fight.
(Personally, I'm not that interested in competitions)

And I hold a lot of respect for other martial arts too. Some of my best friends are Wing Chunners, Bagua'ers, BJJers etc and I think they are very effective martial arts as well.

As I also say, I am always open for people to look me up, cross some hands with me and share some ideas. I still find the training in Tai Chi pretty useful in handling myself, even when the opponent is pretty much bigger than myself.

Cheers,
John

I find that most people who say they do 'tai chi' really do push-hands. There are some who claim to have fighting apps like Erle Montaigue, but I don't really see them out competing or anything. Maybe they are fine with what they have and don't want to compete?

The tai chi that is being taught may not be the true system -- I don't know.

Like I was reading about how they have a snake ground fighting form and stuff, but I don't know anybody who teaches that.

Anyways, whatever. Every once in a while I've been looking around for some good taiji with fighting apps, etc., but I never seem to find it. Maybe it is there, maybe it is not, who knows.

Personally I don't want to spend time anymore with teachers who say they've got the goods but then don't want to teach and/or demonstrate, and that's mostly what I run into. Like everybody had such high regards for Madame Gao Fu who passed away recently. 80+ years old, Chen Taiji, but never showed any fighting skill from what I've heard of. So why do they hold her in such high regards? I have absolutely no clue at all. Very confusing, that is.

[imperialtaichi]

Anyways, whatever. Every once in a while I've been looking around for some good taiji with fighting apps, etc., but I never seem to find it. Maybe it is there, maybe it is not, who knows.

Hello Neil,

Don't blame you, I felt the same some years ago too.

And the problem is, it is SO **** HARD to find someone who can do some serious power... and when when you find someone who can throw you across the room, he/she may not be interested in teaching you how to do it.

The problem with learning Tai Chi is that most of the best stuffs are invisible, as mentioned in the previous posts. So without the teacher actually telling you EXACTLY what's going on, it is impossible to duplicate just by copying the external movements.

Plus, there are so many people out there who cannot do sh!t, yet selling their Tai Chi for a dollar and giving real Tai Chi a bad name. That is why I am so open about what I can and cannot do, and welcome people to cross hands with me. Hopefully, with little of what I can do, I could show people how powerful a martial art Tai Chi really is.

Cheers,
John

[neilhytholt]

Hello Neil,

Don't blame you, I felt the same some years ago too.

And the problem is, it is SO **** HARD to find someone who can do some serious power... and when when you find someone who can throw you across the room, he/she may not be interested in teaching you how to do it.

The problem with learning Tai Chi is that most of the best stuffs are invisible, as mentioned in the previous posts. So without the teacher actually telling you EXACTLY what's going on, it is impossible to duplicate just by copying the external movements.

Plus, there are so many people out there who cannot do sh!t, yet selling their Tai Chi for a dollar and giving real Tai Chi a bad name. That is why I am so open about what I can and cannot do, and welcome people to cross hands with me. Hopefully, with little of what I can do, I could show people how powerful a martial art Tai Chi really is.

Cheers,
John

Throwing across the room is no big deal. That's just a matter of body mechanics and momentum. It's just basic physics. That's one of the reasons BKF is so good at what he does is because he has so much mass to put behind his movements.

I'm not talking about apps like pushing people across the room, or throwing them around. I'm talking about the actual taiji apps, striking and that. Nobody seems to agree on what those are.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Lao Tzu says, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao".. or, "those that know don't speak, those that speak don't know"...

Quite the conundrum, we want those that know to give it up.. but, they have the wisdom to control their knowledge.. we challenge them to "prove it", yet they have all the proof they need.. To those that have it, really have it, it is not a sport to be demonstrated in some side-show event.. it is justly revered. For the record, i don't "have it", but.. i've seen it, felt it, and i'm working diligently to get it..

How would it fare if.. in competition, the opponent throws a right punch, i intercept the wrist with my right hand and rotate my left shoulder into their right elbow and snap it? That is a Taiji application. There are many Taiji applications that simply shouldn't be executed in normal competitions, it's a reality game.. Qinna, properly executed, will result in hyperextensions and breaks.. the kind of things coaches get really upset about when their fighters spend the next six months healing.. and, it's just bad karma to damage our brothers and sisters without cause..

People taunt Taiji players to adapt their skills to tournament style competitions so they can experience the "real deal".. Taiji players insist that if you want the real deal, pay your dues.. do the research, find a good teacher, and actually learn it.. Or, if someone is so intent on experiencing the "real deal", let them attack a good Taiji player, see what the street skills are, then evaluate the efficiency of Taiji fighting skills.. if the attacked player has no skills they get schooled, if they do.. the attacker gets schooled.. either way it's a learning process..

But, mostly it's a game of words... too few on either side willing to venture into reality..

Be well...