Tai Chi is fast, REALLY FAST.

[Hunt]

I practice Chen Loa Jia Yilu (as taught by Chen Qingzhou) and it is full of Punches, kicks, stomps, palm strikes, elbows, and chin na.The second form Pao Chui (cannon fist) seems even more dynamic(I cant wait to learn this ) some bits of the form are pretty obvious i.e. groin punch, hidden hand punch. Then there is other stuff that is not quite as obvious i.e. draping body fist (an armbar), Vajra pounds mortar ( a mix of an uppercut, knee, and stomp) There are bits in the form that have multiple applications as well.

As far as the good Taiji quan fighters, I'm not sure. Both my instructors seem very competent and they are always going over application and scenrarios. I have seen them Fa Jing elbow strikes that looked like they would rip someones head off if it connected. That doesnt nessasarily make them a good fighter, but it makes me confident that they couls handle themselves

[imperialtaichi]

Throwing across the room is no big deal. That's just a matter of body mechanics and momentum. It's just basic physics. That's one of the reasons BKF is so good at what he does is because he has so much mass to put behind his movements.

I'm not talking about apps like pushing people across the room, or throwing them around. I'm talking about the actual taiji apps, striking and that. Nobody seems to agree on what those are.

If you think being thrown across the room is no big deal, you haven't been thrown across the room! I mean, to be able to issue such power, whether internal or external, is no big deal? Com'on! Don't forget, when a Tai Chi throw is executed with intent to harm, you will NOT be landing on your feet. You will be thrown against objects, directly onto the ground, or horizontal or spinning. Not talking about "pushing people across the room", that's not Tai Chi. I 'm talking about feet off the ground bounced off across the room.

Plus, as I mentioned before, there are very effective jams and locks, plus the "Cold Jin" where the opponent is not thrown but compressed through the contact point. Just because you haven't seen it, does not mean it's not there.

You see, people are so bloody ignorant out there that, when our style holds the "empty fist", people criticise it because they thought it got watered down because the Manchurians have long fingernails and they couldn't hold the fist properly... WRONG WRONG WRONG! we hold our fist a certain way because we deliver our power in a specific way and the "empty fist" is held this way to deliver maximum damage to the opponents.

I have spent 20yrs doing different martial arts. I am not one of those airy fairy esoteric hippies doing Tai Chi as a new age game. I'm concentrating on Tai Chi because it make me a better fighter than ever, amoungst other benefits as well.

Look, I'm not into making enemies, I rather make friends. If anyone wants to cross hands with me I am more than happy to do so, as long as you are here to exchange and not pick fight. (Used to get into fights when I was youger, but those days are over. Not into that anymore.)

I'm sorry if I sound a bit heated, but I am so sick of people knocking Tai Chi because they "haven't seen".

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

So I was in a fund raising banquet for local Chinese school.

A teacher led a group of class performing Chen Fa Ke-> Chen Zhao Kui xin Jia short forms.

There were a lot of circles and turns.

One teen learned TKD. She asked me when are they going to strike or hit.

I muted for a while.

Then I said they are doing circles or Chan Si. they are doing a lot of neutralization and releasing Jin at the same time.

She said OH.

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[B-Rad]

I'm sorry if I sound a bit heated, but I am so sick of people knocking Tai Chi because they "haven't seen".

Well, when people talk so much about something in public then never show it in public, criticism is too be expected. Either show it or be secure enough in your knowledge to not worry about what random strangers on the internet think. Whining about people being ignorant of something you've never exposed them to isn't going to solve anything. Right now you're part of the problem you complain about. If you're upset about how people percieve taiji then you should show videos that are clear enough for a non taiji person to understand. Show some of the locking, throwing, or striking applications in a free fighting like enviroment... or even if pre coreographed for safety reasons show it being used in a more conventional self defence/fighting situation. If you want to promote the push hands, energy work, and more internal stuff online, more power to you, but you have to expect the criticism that's going to come along with it. The stuff you're currently showing online is certainly going to look fake to anyone who hasn't experienced such things.

[neilhytholt]

If you think being thrown across the room is no big deal, you haven't been thrown across the room! I mean, to be able to issue such power, whether internal or external, is no big deal? Com'on! Don't forget, when a Tai Chi throw is executed with intent to harm, you will NOT be landing on your feet. You will be thrown against objects, directly onto the ground, or horizontal or spinning. Not talking about "pushing people across the room", that's not Tai Chi. I 'm talking about feet off the ground bounced off across the room.

Oh, please. I've been shown how to throw a person across the room by a hung gar person. There's no mystery there.

It's a matter of basic physics. You get your center of gravity lower than theirs, you accelerate your mass, and then transfer the momentum forward and up into their mass, and they go flying.

Most of the little guys can't launch people without effort. They usually just uproot them and push them, and the people trip across the room.

The guys who are bigger or the guys who are better can actually launch people like 10 feet or more.

[B-Rad]

How would it fare if.. in competition, the opponent throws a right punch, i intercept the wrist with my right hand and rotate my left shoulder into their right elbow and snap it? That is a Taiji application. There are many Taiji applications that simply shouldn't be executed in normal competitions, it's a reality game.. Qinna, properly executed, will result in hyperextensions and breaks.. the kind of things coaches get really upset about when their fighters spend the next six months healing.. and, it's just bad karma to damage our brothers and sisters without cause..

True, but a lot of chin na doesn't have to be taken to such and extreme as to snap a guys arm in half. Chin na isn't just about breaking an opponent, it's also about controlling them, giving you a choice as to how far you want to take it. If you're good at throwing people you can throw them in such a way as they don't snap their necks.

[neilhytholt]

Well, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm not putting down Tai chi or anything. It's just that I'm a bit frustrated with the teachers out there, and the lack of applications. I think that part of this is due to their wanting to continue to make money, without providing students with any real fighting skills.

In my experience, chinese culture has a lot of face saving things.

Let me gives you some examples.

'Steal'. The student 'stole' that. Means they either learned it from another person, learned it by watching, or learned it and now are teaching without permission.

Many masters will say their students 'stole' things from them, which means that the student is teaching and the instructor isn't getting the $$$ from the teaching.

'Stupid'. Somebody is 'stupid'. Means not necessarily that they're stupid, but they are from a different lineage, do something differently from the teacher, etc.

'I know, but I don't tell you, because I want you to figure it out.' This means that they probably don't know, or they want to string you along for years and years, making $$$ off of you in the process.

'It's too deadly for the ring'. Means they don't have the skills to properly apply it in the ring, or don't have the control not to hurt their opponent, or they just don't want to fight at all for fear of getting hurt.

Usually, 'it's too deadly for the ring', means they don't have the skills to apply it and never actually fought with anybody. A lot of people have a false sense of confidence from this.

'It's too hard and takes years to master'. Sun Lu Dong studied bagua for what, 3 years? Xingyi for how long? Taiji for how long? So when somebody tells you it takes years and years, sure, it might take years, but likely they don't have the goods, or can't teach it.

So instead you get people studying taiji for 25 years who have 0 fighting skills, only basic push-hands skills, never actually practiced against a resisting opponent in a sparring situation or a ring or anything, who then go on to teach.

So I don't know about your tai chi at all, just that the tricks of throwing people around and stuff aren't a big deal. sure, you can snap a guy's wrist or something maybe, but can you control him without snapping? Aikido people can control without snapping (well some of them can).

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

True, but a lot of chin na doesn't have to be taken to such and extreme as to snap a guys arm in half. Chin na isn't just about breaking an opponent, it's also about controlling them, giving you a choice as to how far you want to take it. If you're good at throwing people you can throw them in such a way as they don't snap their necks.

Sure, but.. if we don't express Qinna to the point of near breaks or strains the opponent struggles and says how much it doesn't work.. what you are suggesting is that we express Taiji like "point sparring".. at the same time you insist on "reality" fighting.. which is it? Qinna, held back, is not an effective weapon against an opponent that is playing full-contact.. full-on is full-on for both players.. I've played that game, where someone is trying to take my head off but complaining when i strain his elbow or wrist.. i seldom throw, it starts like a throw but ends up with a lock and pressure to the result of submission.. or, the opponent doesn't like the target.. it is tiresome to be herded into rules that favor the opponent's style..

If you're good at throwing people you can throw them in such a way as they don't snap their necks.

If you're good at fighting, you can be thrown with little harm.. it's two-way-street.. if i can't express my art fully, then don't hit me here or kick me there.. i get bruised, battered, and broken from training and grow weary of players that wimp-out when they suffer, too.. Certainly, Taiji can control an opponent, but.. there are good fighters out there and the only way to "control" them is to effect a certain level of damage.. 'cause if they get free they will do the same to you.. keep it real.. or, keep it balanced, at least..

'It's too deadly for the ring'. Means they don't have the skills to properly apply it in the ring, or don't have the control not to hurt their opponent, or they just don't want to fight at all for fear of getting hurt.

Again, if the opponent wants to play nice, i'm all for it.. but, usually, it ends up with them attacking hard and complaining when they get the same response.. Taiji is not so gentle as to be dominated by other arts.. it is just smart enough not to alienate itself.. when i don't effectively neutralize someone because of the harm it could cause, i suffer ridicule that the technique is ineffective.. when i do neutralize someone with sufficient force they complain.. what's a Taiji guy to do?

Be well...

[Hunt]

Oh, please. I've been shown how to throw a person across the room by a hung gar person. There's no mystery there.

It's a matter of basic physics. You get your center of gravity lower than theirs, you accelerate your mass, and then transfer the momentum forward and up into their mass, and they go flying.

Most of the little guys can't launch people without effort. They usually just uproot them and push them, and the people trip across the room.

The guys who are bigger or the guys who are better can actually launch people like 10 feet or more.

From what I've learned, it's more about controling the mass and momentum being thrown at you; plus being able to listen to where that mass and momentum is going. I've seen little guys bounce guys twice their size..send them flying...with what looked like zero effort. An oversimplified explanation would be: when your opponet pushes, you pull. When your opponent pulls, you push. You can also bait people too. You push/pull someone their kneejerk reaction is to resist in the direction you are applying force to...and the moment they do, you send them in that direction...

I dont mind that people underestimate Taiji quan. When I tell most people I practice it they equate it to wierd chinease yoga or something. I was the same way..I used to heckel my friend that got me into it....Now I cant get enough

[Fu-Pow]

This is great thread because I've been wondering lately when does the speed training (ie reflex training) and pressure testing come in Taiji?

I've been doing a lot of sparring lately and I've been able to use some Taiji energies to a certain degree. However, mostly I use my CLF training because I am used to using it in faster manner. When I try to stick to my opponent and off balance him, I end up eating punches.

It seem that if you don't do some sort of training for speed of application, you will get your nose broken before you know what hit you....especially if you're opponent is a trained martial artist. Boxers, for example, have very fast hands, how can you hope to "stick" to your opponents when their speed of attack is so fast?

Are there specific drills to train speed in Taiji?

[dleungnyc]

I wouldn't call it drills per se, more like conditioning your body and mind.

The way it was shown to me, I practiced each technique slowly, once I have all the alignments correct, then I increase the speed of the movements without losing the posture. I keep practicing this one movement until I can do it at or around combat speed without losing alignments and tensing of the body.

[Fu-Pow]

I wouldn't call it drills per se, more like conditioning your body and mind.

The way it was shown to me, I practiced each technique slowly, once I have all the alignments correct, then I increase the speed of the movements without losing the posture. I keep practicing this one movement until I can do it at or around combat speed without losing alignments and tensing of the body.

Do you ever practice neutralizing uncoreographed attacks with a partner....ie San Shou?

[SPJ]

Response to the first post.

If the opponent is slow, you may go fast.

If the opponent is fast, you may go faster or slow.

If the opponent is too fast for your moves, we may then just move away by steps and rotating the waist.

You may do cloud hands or repluse monkey or whatever.

My point is that space may make up for timing.

speed is relative.

[brucereiter]

Well, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm not putting down Tai chi or anything. It's just that I'm a bit frustrated with the teachers out there, and the lack of applications. I think that part of this is due to their wanting to continue to make money, without providing students with any real fighting skills.

In my experience, chinese culture has a lot of face saving things.

Let me gives you some examples.

'Steal'. The student 'stole' that. Means they either learned it from another person, learned it by watching, or learned it and now are teaching without permission.

Many masters will say their students 'stole' things from them, which means that the student is teaching and the instructor isn't getting the $$$ from the teaching.

'Stupid'. Somebody is 'stupid'. Means not necessarily that they're stupid, but they are from a different lineage, do something differently from the teacher, etc.

'I know, but I don't tell you, because I want you to figure it out.' This means that they probably don't know, or they want to string you along for years and years, making $$$ off of you in the process.

'It's too deadly for the ring'. Means they don't have the skills to properly apply it in the ring, or don't have the control not to hurt their opponent, or they just don't want to fight at all for fear of getting hurt.

Usually, 'it's too deadly for the ring', means they don't have the skills to apply it and never actually fought with anybody. A lot of people have a false sense of confidence from this.

'It's too hard and takes years to master'. Sun Lu Dong studied bagua for what, 3 years? Xingyi for how long? Taiji for how long? So when somebody tells you it takes years and years, sure, it might take years, but likely they don't have the goods, or can't teach it.

So instead you get people studying taiji for 25 years who have 0 fighting skills, only basic push-hands skills, never actually practiced against a resisting opponent in a sparring situation or a ring or anything, who then go on to teach.

So I don't know about your tai chi at all, just that the tricks of throwing people around and stuff aren't a big deal. sure, you can snap a guy's wrist or something maybe, but can you control him without snapping? Aikido people can control without snapping (well some of them can).

hi neil,

(start humor)

it takes 97 years of practice to become skilled with taijiquan. a person will never be "ready" until they do the "basics" for 87 years then you can start to learn fighting. so the way i see it within 20 years after your death you will be able to use taijiquan to fight.

(end humor)

if you practice for i think about 5 years you can start to have pretty good skill, but you have to experiment and learn things for your self with occasional corrections from your teacher. to become good i think you need to do push hands and spar with as many people as you can find at all skill levels and styles. and really think of taijiquan as a set of principals and concepts that govern your movement.

keep searching, good taijiquan is hard to find. but it is out there. maybe 10% or less may be skilled (imho)

[SPJ]

communication. communication. and communication.

1. stealing stuff. If you have learned something from somewhere, then be nice to mention where your moves are from. Give the teachers their proper credits. Then they can only say you borrow or learn from them and did not steal.

For example, there is a posture of pushing upward with the right hand while pressing down with left hand. It may be called pushing thru the sky or Tong Tian Ding (common name) or Tian Wang Tuo Ta (the heavenly king holding the bogota), I modified the posture. I did mention where it is from. then nobody is saying that I am stealing the posture from the forms that were taught by a certain teacher or school.

Give the source proper credits.

2. dun comment on something you dun know. We have to know something about the style or postures involved before commenting and also mention why you think so, then no body will call you silly, or dunno what you are saying.

3, the teacher can only be a guide, we still have to learn and practice for the most part of what we become to know or experience.

4. how long it would take you to learn a certain style? if you are talented and diligent, ya in a short time. If not, we may never enter the door or remain outdoor despite of long time of practice. Not every body is Su Lu Tang or Chen Fa Ke or Yang Lu Chan.

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