what is your view on Chen style TaiChi ?

[RAF]

Although I have met Dr. Hwang of Colombus several times, his Yang's taiji has never come up. However, I did hear from others that he knew Liu's material but what you refer to as the old Yang's taiji was Yang Chien Hou's middle frame and that is what I have heard he teaches. Keep in mind that I haven't heard this directly from him but someone who studied with him before.

[jack]

Jack,

You've kind of got things screwed up about Chen style. To begin with, there are really only 2 divisions of Chen, the first being small frame (xiaojia), and the other being large frame (dajia). Small frame was the original or oldest frame of taiji. Zhaobao developed from small frame when a Chen practitioner married and moved to Zhaobao village.

Large frame was a later development. When Chen Fake developed a variatipon of dajia that showed more obvious silk reeling, some practitioners then began referring to Fake's version of dajia as "xinjia" or new frame, and its predecessor as "laojia" or old frame.

Ron

Hi, Ron. I think you get it all wrong. This is chen taichi link which could support my story. But it is in chinese.

http://www.taichi.org.tw/Circulation/chenstyle.htm

[tjqg]

Chen style classes seem to be the only ones you can count on to have martial applications in them. I have seen no other Taijiquan that is so consistent across the country. Just as Chen usually has fighters Yang style usually doesn't. Worldwide it might be different but here in North America thats the way it seems to me.

I teach Yang style btw.

I don't think you can count on any style of Tai Chi when facing a robber.
Tai Chi was one of the most effective martial arts in the past, but masters at that time had to work very hard every day, and not only forms and tuishou, they had to stand still for hours, roll heavy vats and really fight, and most grand tai chi masters studied other martial arts prior to Tai Chi.
nowadays we attend a Tai Chi class once a week, have a good time with an instructor who never really fight, how can you fight a bravo who are trained to kill people?

[mawali]

The Yang style lineage per the present inheritors but it is as it is.

Many people were left off so enjoy:

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/info...familytree.jpg

one source only!

[omarthefish]

Hi, Ron. I think you get it all wrong. This is chen taichi link which could support my story. But it is in chinese.

http://www.taichi.org.tw/Circulation/chenstyle.htm

He [Jack] is just quoting practically verbatum this bit here:

. . .陳清萍所傳者為新架之小架，簡稱小架，又稱趙堡架，此套拳路是從新架變化出來，且更為緊湊。

Bolded where it says, "more simply called 'new frame' or also 'zhaobao frame'.

But the problem is that this theory is completely unsupported and would come as a GREAT surprise to all the Zhaobao practictioners here in Xi'an, of which there are quite a few. Zhaobao, while it almost certainly shares a historical connection with Chen style, is VERY distinct from Xinjia. There is some xin jia here in Xi'an too. A guy over in Xinxing park is supposed to be quite good at it. Master Li Suicheng is probably the top Zhaobai guy around and I have seen his class over in the park on the south side of town that just went up about a year ago. It looks nothing like Chen style except in that it is obviously Taijiquan. Many Zhaobao people also refer to their style as "He" style if they are from a certain branch.

I'm afraid the consensus, and that's how words are defined, by consensus, is pretty much what Ron posted back there. I thought this was common knowledge in Taiji circles.

[jack]

Hi, Ron

Besides old frame, new frame & small frame. There is still another chen style taichi frame call Hu Lei frame(忽雷架,sudden thunder frame). It created based on small frame.

Its creator was Li JingYan (李景延), also from the zhao bao town. His teacher was Chen Qing Ping.

Besides checking from the traditional Chinese websites, you may check from the simplified Chinese websites too. Compare them.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Then there's the Hong Practical Style.. just to muddy the water..

It's a little humorous, watching people try to define or resolve the ambiguities of words.. with more words..

Be well..

[omarthefish]

Gotta agree with that.

I'm backing off on this thread. I made my points and don't feel like arguing.

Hulei is generally considered a variant on Zhaobao just like "He Shi". Trying to call it a Chen subtype is just a political thing. Chen people pushing their agenda.

[jack]

Why not let ask the kungfu magazine to do a research story on chen style taichi? since they are in this line.

Another link for you all:

http://home.pchome.com.tw/service/sa...36;%20變

[omarthefish]

lolololololooll.....

I hope that wasn' t directed at me. *groan*

Dude, I do not gp to KFO for research, I go to China. Check the local. Get my info on Chen from other people who are doing that. I get my info on He style and Zhaobao from the He and Zhaobao teachers that a magazine like this one interviews. In other words, why look to a magazine or a website reference when you can go to the source?

btw, you in Taiwan or something? Because you keep linking Taiwanese website references.

[jack]

Have you read the taiji essays wrote by a famous mainland MA researcher, Kang Ge Wu 康戈武?

[ 太极拳发展的成形时期
　
综合笔者目前看到的考证材料，明末清初时期是太极拳发展的成形时期。明洪武七年从山西洪洞迁至河南温县陈家 沟（时名“常阳村”）的陈氏一族，精习武术。传八世到了明祟祯至清康熙年间时，第九世的陈王廷（1600－ 1680）文武兼备。当时，经明代戚继光（1528－1587）和程冲斗（1561－？）等著名武术家规范 提倡的武术套路运动形式已经成为各家拳法传播的重要形式，并且出现了将导引和吐纳术渗入武术锻炼的趋势。连 少林寺武僧也于此时开始兼习“易筋经”强身功法，出现了“始有内外交修之旨，身心两修之功”的少林拳体系（ 见1915年版《少林拳术秘诀》）。陈王廷顺应这一趋势，为了“教下些弟子儿孙，成龙成虎任方便”（见陈王 廷遗词《长短句》），于晚年着手创编拳架。据《陈氏拳械谱》，陈王廷所造拳架共7套，包括有太极拳（一名十 三势）五路、长拳一百八势一路、炮捶一路。在陈王廷所造拳架中，有29势同于戚继光综合古今十六家拳法编成 的《拳经》三十二势拳套。此外，在《陈氏拳械谱》中，还有“红拳”、“盘罗棒”等谱，以及“古刹登出少林寺 ”这样的词语，说明陈王廷是在总结民间和军队中流行拳法的基础上，取众家之长编创出太极拳早期拳 架的。]

[太极拳发展的成熟时期
　
清朝中叶，太极拳走完了它的幼稚期，进入了成熟期。这一时期的代表人物有陈氏十四世的陈长兴（1771—1 853）、陈有本，长兴之徒——永年人杨露禅（1799—1872）、有本之徒——陈氏十五世陈青萍（17 95—1868），还有兼得杨露禅和陈青萍之传的永年人武禹襄（1812—1880）。太极拳进入成熟期的 特征主要表现在三个方面。
　
其一、出现了突出健身功能的拳架。陈王廷创编的七套拳架，经五传至陈长兴、陈有本时，原来一百零八势的长拳 和太极拳（一名十三势）第二路至第五路，在陈家沟已很少有人练习，陈氏拳家已经由博返约，专精于太极拳第一 路和炮捶（现称陈式太极拳第二路）。大约道光咸丰年间（1821—1861），为了适应保健的需要和不同学 习对象的练习需要，陈有本去掉老架中的某些难度动作，编成陈氏新架太极拳。这套拳架与陈氏老架没有本质的区 别，主要区别在于老架拳弧形绕转的圈较大，新架拳圈较小。故也称老架为大圈拳，称新架为小圈拳。有本的弟子 、族侄陈青萍，又在有本所传拳架的基础上创造了两套架式。其中一套小巧紧凑，动作缓慢，练会后逐步加圈；由 简入繁，逐步提高技巧。另一套，注重技击，常在周身一起转圈的过程中突然发劲，劲快而猛烈，有似旱天炸雷。 前者，青萍传于陈家沟北邻的赵堡镇，人称赵堡架。后者流传于陈家沟东邻的王圪村，人称“圪颤架”，或称 “忽雷架”。]

[imperialtaichi]

I don't think you can count on any style of Tai Chi when facing a robber... nowadays we attend a Tai Chi class once a week, have a good time with an instructor who never really fight, how can you fight a bravo who are trained to kill people?

Hello Tjqg,

In a way you are right... but it is not the Tai Chi that's the problem, it is the fact that people are not willing to work on it, and a lot of instructors lacks the knowledge and know how. If you substitute with another art, but still only train once a week, and the instructor is incompetant, no matter what you train you will still be in effective.

I can assure you, if my more dedicated Tai Chi students are faced with armed attackers, they will do OK. I also have students who are very experienced fighters who are now training in Tai Chi because they see it as more effective than anything they have trained before. You cannot say you can't count on any style of Tai Chi.

Cheers,
John

[omarthefish]

Have you read the taiji essays wrote by a famous mainland MA researcher, Kang Ge Wu 康戈武?

I'll answer the question if you explain what your point is with the article quoted.

This is not a Chinese forum and I am not going to discuss this with you in Chinese.