How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

[TaiChi-IronPalm]

I didn't pick the name but that is what it is called... It is taught by some gung-ho ex-navy seal sniper 7th Dan Hapkido instructor (ITA certification) who teaches realistic hapkido for the "street"? lol... Idk what he was thinking when he named it, but it is a very good class (only 50 bucks a month too!!) that teaches many ways to deal with people that "hug" you when you start pounding their @ss with kicks and punches.

To be quite honest, Tae Kwon Do hardly touches on what to do if someone really starts grappling with you. They teach basic grab escapes, but nothing past the basic "twist your wrist towards their thumb" escape techniques.

Tae Kwon Do also teaches to follow up with a strike after a counter ALWAYS. I would prefer to quickly snap an arm than to punch them in the face... and believe me, I LOVE punching

Again as for the name of the class, I think it is all marketing... I guess people will like to hear the words "street grappling" rather than "modernized hapkido"

I got a black belt in some style of hapkido back in 85 and its pretty cool, I got it in north carolina, from some dude teaching downtown, I dont know what the lineage is or whatever, it may not even be real hapkido, but what I learned was alot like if you combined Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do type striking with Aikdo and Jujitsu type locks, throws, and chokes. It has always been pretty effective in the street. Doesnt hurt that I can take multiple, at least 12 looking back at the fight, punches to the jaw and temple from a 6'8" 300lb Marine presidential guard and not be knocked out, I guess that is a strong chin? That helps for sure, funny though it only took one punch to his crotch to end the madness of him having me jammed up against a wall punching the crap out of me.

[jkdninja]

I train in Jun Fan Gung Fu/ Jeet Kune Do with Sifu Lamar Davis. I have TKD and BJJ experience as well. I find that the JKD can be applied more effeciently to a street fight than the other styles I have trained in. I would also agree with earlier posts that the gun is the best weapon of choice. But that to brings great responsibilities. Checkout this web site: http://www.hardcorejkd.com it is by Sifu Lamar Davis. His training is geared toward the real life world and not tournaments or MMA fights. Also check out http://www.realcombatonline.com this site has articles from Sifu Davs as well as other well known instructors. it also has a forum if you want to join it it is free as well.

KS

[SevenStar]

the drawback of the gun is that if you don't already have it drawn, ****ed and trained on your attacker, you may not be fast enough to use it. I won't addressthe rest of your post, as we are all entitled to our own opinions...

[Samurai Jack]

Finally, while the argument about having a good chance of being killed or killing a bystander simply doesn't hold up. Show me the statistics on people who legally carry firearms accidentally shooting themselves or others.

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I've been out of the country. Here are some quotes, and thier sources:

"The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families."

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/T...S/GUNSTAT.html

"From 1993 to 2002,1 data from the BLS Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) show that 175 workers were killed on the job as the result of an accidental gunshot wound. While this total represented only 0.3 percent of the 61,146 workplace fatalities suffered by all workers during this 10-year span, these fatalities are especially alarming because they involve firearms and are prevalent in military and protective service occupations."

Below is a chart showing the rates of accidental gunshot deaths between the years 1993 and 2002. Note the fact that these individuals were police, government agents, and military who shot and killed themselves or a by-stander in the course of doing thier jobs. These statistics do not include either gulf war, for obvious reasons.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/tables/sh20040903ar01t1.htm

"Research has shown that a gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.(Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home." The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.) The use of a firearm to resist a violent assault actually increases the victim's risk of injury and death(FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48)."

"Keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one. That is, excluding many other factors such as previous history of violence, class, race, etc., a household with a gun is 2.7 times more likely to experience a murder than a household without one, even while there was no significant increase in the risk of non-gun homicides. " (Arthur Kellermann et. al., "Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home," The New England Journal of Medicine, October 7, 1993, pp. 1084-1091)

"The present study, based on a sample of eighteen countries, confirms the result of previous work based on the 14 countries surveyed during the first International Crime Survey. Substantial correlations were found between gun ownership and gun-related as well as total homicide and suicide rates. Of the recorded homicide rates, 16% were commited unintentionally. Widespread gun ownership has not been found to reduce the likelihood of fatal events committed with other means. Thus, people do not turn to knives and other potententially lethal weapons less often when more guns are available, but more guns usually means more victims of homicide and suicide." (International Crime Victim Survey 2004)

So there you go. Some statistics and comments from our governement, the National, and International Crime Victim surevey (used by law enforcement to track trends in crime), Scientific American, and the New England Journal of Medicine.

[Fajing]

Ok... you obviously don't know anything about tae Kwon Do. Please do not talk about martial arts that you do not know about.

Tae Kwon Do is actually one of the best martial arts for street defense. Tae Kwon Do uses mainly kicks (of course) and in street fighting that doesn't change. Against in-experienced fighters, High kicks really do own. They get kicked in the chest and head, while trying to attack you with their fists. It is actually really amusing. Against experienced/professional fighters, low kicks must be used. Saying that Tae Kwon Do is not good for street fighting obviously comes from the mouth of someone who has not had their femur/ankle/knee snapped in half by a low side/front/round kick.

Idiot. Feet hit harder, and have more range than any other weapon in the arsenal of the human body.

I am (by no means) putting tae Kwon Do above any other martial art. I am, however, saying that Tae Kwon Do is very appropriate for street self defense. Just because a few stupid ATA Tae Kwon Do black-belts suck balls, does not mean that more serious Tae Kwon Do people also suck balls.

Observe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkdzG...tornado%20kick
http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/..._Knockout.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS8vv...0wtf%20olympic
Little guy takes down a big guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMp13...ae%20kwon%20do
TKD VS Kyokushin Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkHuX...0wtf%20olympic

Yeah so... shut the f!ck up because I have won street fights against people who use Wing Chun and Muy Thai. In my opinion, Wing Chun focuses too much on punching and not enough on kicking, Tae Kwon Do being the opposite.. Usually focusing too much on kicking, and not enough on punching. I take street grappling classes and some training similar to that should be used in correlation with TKD.

Dude, a few points.....first of all calm down. Hey, I agree with you about TKD. If you are an awesome TKD practitioner with the right skills and training, you can whoop ass. However, this is no reason to diss other styles like Wing Chun or Muy Thai. They both also produce some awesome fighters. There will always be people on these forums claiming that one style is inferior or terrible, but this is just because they have yet to encounter a good practitioner, who does the style justice. People often pick on Tae Kwon Do because of all the cheesy dojos that lack proper training measures. I see 8 year olds with black belts. Furthermore, those clips aren't very good ones. Those are cheesy point tournaments that have too many pads, restrictions and not enough diverse arts competing. Post a UFC or MMA event where a TKD guy whoops as and it will be more powerful in supporting your arguement. Anyway, I do agree with you overall. It depends far more on the fighter than the art itself. TKD fighters can whoop some ass too. Just an observation.....

[unkokusai]

Tae Kwon Do is actually one of the best martial arts for street defense.

.........................LOL

[dwid]

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I've been out of the country. Here are some quotes, and thier sources:



Below is a chart showing the rates of accidental gunshot deaths between the years 1993 and 2002. Note the fact that these individuals were police, government agents, and military who shot and killed themselves or a by-stander in the course of doing thier jobs. These statistics do not include either gulf war, for obvious reasons.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/tables/sh20040903ar01t1.htm



So there you go. Some statistics and comments from our governement, the National, and International Crime Victim surevey (used by law enforcement to track trends in crime), Scientific American, and the New England Journal of Medicine.

Thanks for all the data. I have to admit I see some weaknesses in the way the data are interpreted in the reporting, but it is something we'll likely have to agree to disagree on. The fact is that the base rates for accidental shooting deaths are extremely low. 175 over a 10 year period, many of which occurred in occupations where firearms were regularly carried is not very many. Further, if 50% of American homes contain firearms then it is erroneous to claim, as one of the above mentioned authors do, that "most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families." Clearly most of these weapons are never used in any violent way whatsoever. Including data on intentional suicides is just a way to inflate the numbers, as it is irrelevant to the topic of accidental injuries and fatalities. Anyway, yes firearms can pose a danger. Certainly lots of people buy guns and store them unsafely in homes with kids, etc... and I would never advocate any of that. However, you'll note in looking at my original quote that I was specifically referring to people who legally carry firearms, as in those with concealed carry permits who have gone through the required training and people who are otherwise permitted to carry firearms. I suppose these people would fall into the 175 work related accidental firearm fatalities, which again, is not very many given that the data included police officers and such. Data on injuries and fatalities related to guns are some of the most manipulated data there are - both sides of the fence (the gun owner people and the gun control people) have their extreme supporters and both are certainly guilty of skewing the stats in their favor. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and is basically common sense.

[Ironwind]

Not saying be completely stupid about it but if my life depended on it and I was armless I'd would try my best to just break his arm or even in jujitsu "the falling arm bar" thing blast til' the clips empty then whoop'm.

But if it happened to be more than 1 person then use each person against the other... right???

[Cleveland]

If you are at a distance, run. Most criminals do not know how to use and aim a gun in the first place. If you are close, martial arts is very effective. Where I train in Northern Shaolin, my Sifu teaches kung-fu for self defense. We learn gun defense, REAL knife defense (which is included in our testing), and even chair fighting. The biggest reason people can't defend themselves is there are too many garbage schools who teach the fancy stuff. We learn forms, but he stresses real techniques like groin kicks, eye gouges, and throat strikes. If you are close enough, and have trained long enough, your martial arts should be able to protect you or give you a means for escape.

[SevenStar]

Most criminals do not know how to use and aim a gun in the first place.

that's a very dangerous ASSumption to make.

If you are close, martial arts is very effective.

How do you know? How many times have you used your art in a real altercation against a gun?

We learn forms, but he stresses real techniques like groin kicks, eye gouges, and throat strikes.

All of the areas you mentioned are not necessarily fight enders, and in some cases (like with eye gouges and throat stirkes), are very hard to hit against a moving, resisting opponent.

[螳螂(Mantis)]

I think we can all agree that violence USUALLY causes more problems than it solves. If someone is threatening my life than I will be passive unless I am absolutely sure that he doesn't intend on letting me live. I won't let them tie me down or lock me in a closet either. If I am going to die then I die fighting. Of course we all have every right to fear death but I was taught to never fear anything except fear itself. Easier said then done . And I live in Florida so I can kill if I feel my life is in danger according to the state law. One thing I have learned is that psycology is a great weapon in combat. You can judge someone's character by their words, actions, facial expressions ect. and you will have a better chance of knowing what action to take since you know what kind of person you are up against. For example if some dude walks up to me with a gun in his trembling hand demanding that I hand over my wallet, with beads of sweat dripping from his face and nothing but sheer terror and suspensful agony, then I would show as much agression as possible because he is obviously scared about what may happen next. Now it would be a good idea to know what he is afraid of specifically (e.g. physical pain, the law, death,phobias...) but in a situation such as this I probably wouldn't have the time to see what makes him tick. This may not give you 100% satisfactory results but I gaurentee you that a good understanding of the human mind will give you a better chance at turning the tables on your attacker. Each personality and emotion type has a counter to it. But to what effect the counter will have depends on how severe the signs of a particular personality type or emotion(at that givin moment). If you are having a hard time figuring out who you are dealing with by looking for the "not so obvious signs" than it's best not to chance it like that. But I seriously doubt you will not be able to determine character and/or emotion in a situation as tense as life and death. Physical contact is only half the battle. The mind plays it's role in a fight too. So it helps if your body and reflexes are fast but your mind is faster. It just gives you more time to judge the situation and how you should react. Remember that we are humans, we are on the top of the food chain because of the thing we each have concealed inside our heads. Adrenaline plays a major factor in combat too but I think we all know enough info on that, so I won't throw out anymore info then I think will be read.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I live in Atlanta.

A couple of months back, there were stories of bartenders getting held up in the Kennesaw (North Metro ATL) area of Cobb County GA. An ex-marine was a bartender or a waiter at a place called Jocks and Jills. He got off of his shift, locked up the bar, and then crossed the dark, open parking lot to get to his car. All he had on him was his backpack. As he's crossing the lot, two people jump out of their van. One has a shotgun, the other has a pistol. He kicks the shotgun out of hte dude's hands, catches it, shoots him, and then shoots the chick with the pistol. They were threatening to kill him, and they'd killed someone before. The ex-marine got off scot-free.

That, my boys, takes some primo cahones. Taking on a shotty....****...

[qiphlow]

hasn't this subject come up like 5 billion times already? when it comes down to it, YOU are the one who will have to use the tools that you have to defend your life or your family. martial arts are a tool, as is a gun, a knife, a bat, a chain, etc.
these things are useless without a human being to use them. it's kind of stupid to argue which one is the best--what works for you may not work for someone else. it's all subjective.

[straight blast]

Feet hit harder, and have more range than any other weapon in the arsenal of the human body.

I'll give you that they have more range, but hit harder?

With all due respect...Come on.

Elbows and headbutts hit harder due to the amount of body mass & strength of structure.

The human head weighs roughly the same as a bowling ball & if delivered properly (much in the same way as a good kicker delivers properly) has the entire body structure behind it.

I have seen many Muay Thai fights where a fighter has shaken off a good head kick (surprisingly I'll admit) but it is rare in the extreme to see one walk away after a solid elbow.

Just my 2c

[msg]

i think most not all MA would work on the street you just have to remember it does not allways look like the forms you practice but it willwork .Or the differnt MA styles that are hundreds of years old would not still be around