How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

[Shaolin Wookie]

Knees and bow's, my boys....knees and bow's.....

[mantiskilla]

i want to hear more about the marine/ shotgun incident. thats one of the coolest things i've ever heard. got a link to an article or anything?
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[mawali]

Regardless of what we say about taekwondo, it is the most popular MA. It seems to offer people what they want in a martial sport or martial art! Take your pick.
It is organized, skills are transferrable, and agility, strength and conditioning are part of the health and fitness area.

All this without empty force, chi **** and other wily creations of the New Age tai chi movement! Dig that!
is wizz ( w i z z) a bad word?

[JDK]

Regardless of what we say about taekwondo, it is the most popular MA. It seems to offer people what they want in a martial sport or martial art! Take your pick.
It is organized, skills are transferrable, and agility, strength and conditioning are part of the health and fitness area.

All this without empty force, chi **** and other wily creations of the New Age tai chi movement! Dig that!
is wizz ( w i z z) a bad word?

I was 17, no formal training...but I trained religiously on my own ( Jeet Kun Do, Karate, Boxing) We had a kid in the neighborhood who was a Black Belt at
the popular taekwondo school in our area. H e somehow got word that I like to practice martial arts...so he challenged me.
I accepted...I was a little nervous because he was rich, and had studied at a School for 3 years and was a certified Black Belt...while I was lower niddle class with no formal training at that point...I just orders Books and self-taught myself as best I could.

Our "sparring" (in front of several of our mutual friends) quicly turned into a fight which lasted about 5 minutes.

I am not bragging here or trying to sound conceited..but I kicked his Butt.
Believe me...I was as surprised as him and the crowd!!!!!

He left embarrassed, making excuses and never challengd me again.


That was the first experience I had...but it was a real eye-opener ((remember...this was 1974...and Korean Karate was very popular).....I practiced it too....but I also had become a Boxer by then, and it was then I realized that I had what is called a Natural Heavy ability to Strike...or "Heavy Hands". My tendon strength and fast twitch muscles in my upper body were God given and came naturally.

I complied an amatuer record of 11-1 with 8 first round knock outs. I had fights in Ohio, Nashville Tenn, and one in North Carolina.

I really like the traditional MA's though...so I began to study Hung-gar, Southern Shaolin and Choy li Fut at a Real School .

I remember my third week...we did an exercise called Three Star Blocks and a 38 year old Akron Police Offficer was my partner as we paired off in class randomly.
He had 3 years training in the System plus his Police Training.

I could tell he was really trying to impress me with his hard Blocks to my forearms
so I increased my striking and matched his intensity.
I was 6"1 and 200 pounds and he was aboput the same..maybe a little taller.

It soon became apparent that I was hurting him with my blocks, and I was "in the zone" and not really feeling any pain of my own The more frustrated he became, the harder I blocked, using my waist, legs and trunk rotation to generate power.

I write this NOT to brag or sound conceited...ther were plenty of humbling experience waiting for me in future classes...and alot of things I could do well.

I overheard him go up to Sifu after the exercise and while rubbing his forearms he said Boy...that new kid is realy strong! If he sticks with Stance Training and the Power exercises he is really going to be good!
I admit it..I was kinda proud of myself.

Next week at class as we paired off..SIFU chose me as his partner.
But...he was a 60 year old man, who for all intents and purposes looked like a young 50 year old man, with no grey hair and a very friendly disposition.

As we began our 3 Star Blocking...I noticed he didnt seem like he was putting forth much effort...and yet [b]within 1 minute my forearms arms were throbbing! I increased my power as I had done the week before,,,,but Sifu seemed to somehow absorb my blows without any pain ...and continued to pound my forearms with the same effortless looking 6 Star Blocks! This 60 year old man...stoof 5foot 8, weighed maybe 165-170...and yeat he was killingme!!!! ONLY my pride kept me going for the full exercise. I was dumbfounded and sore.
We took a short tea break then...and he slipped into his backroom and gave me a bottle of Bruise Medicine and instructed me how to use it.

Unknown to me at the time, his specialty for the last 30 years was Iron Body, Iron Palm and Iron Vest...I later watched at a demonstration where they broke a heavy 4 foot by 4 foot Cement Block over his back with a Sledge Hammer..while he had the razor sharp piont of a Spear pressed against his adams apple,while a senior student place his foot on the other end of the Spear on the ground to hold it in place. I watched as the Spear Bent and Sifu
absorbed the point of the Spear without damage to his throat. We were all invited down to examine both the Spear, his throat and the cement Block.

In class later that week he was very matter of fact about it...said he didnt like doing it, because it felt like he was showing off.

I learned in Class over the next year that even with all my God-given natural punching ability...this man was able to either move, sidestep, block OR absorb my best punches...without any effect!!!!! It was frustrating and humbling.

But that was the intention....the humility part I believe.

JD

[PhillyKid81]

Martial Arts is no different from anything else...it will be much more effective for those who fight a lot. The biggest problem with all martial arts is the people that practice them. They have a set of assumptions in mind: a punch will be a hook rather than a cross, for instance. They'll design the perfect techinque to counter it until they get a 1-2 jab hook combination. Then the technique's out the window. The funny thing about any martial art is that it attempts to bring structure and order to something that's inherently chaotic, namely fighting.

A system's principles will work in a street fight, rehearsed techinques won't. As an analogy, imagine learning to play basketball by simply shooting the rock in your backyard. You do lay-up drills, you practice dribbling between chairs, you practice your fade-away, and then you go to the local gym to test it out. Well, all of your backyard training never taught you how to handle a 3/4 press. It never taught you how to choose the perfect moment to switch the ball from your right hand to the left to get a defender off balance. And it certainly never prepared you for the pace, agression, and spontaneity of an intense pick up game.

Fighting can't be too different. Admittedly, I'm not a martial artist: I'm a ball player. But I don't have any scripted reaction to any one given situation on the court. I'm not sure what I'd do if a guy forced me baseline with my left hand underneath the basket. I just have enough experience playing the sport that I'm able to analyze the situation and deduce what options are available to me at any given point in time.

I've taken a few classes in Wing Chun, JKD, and Sayoc, and these guys all say: "Once you deliver the kick to the groin, you go for the arm bar, and once he's on the ground, you do yada yada yada..." . Well, what if you miss the kick to the groin? What if he fights his way out of the arm bar? Most guys would go into panic mode because they only know a five-step technique that's supposed to lead to eventual submission. But once they miss step 2, they'll either go back to regular scrapping or get stomped out on Chelten Avenue.

When I was in 8th grade, I had a class where I sparred against an adult who practicied Hung Gar. He kept trying to trap my arms, but I just decided to **** back and drill him in the chest with a right cross. He then told me that I wasn't allowed to do that. Why not? Can't the Praying Leopard Strike counter a right cross?

In all, I think the best way to learn to fight is to do something that allows you to fight. Boxing teaches good footwork and you develop good timing and get somewhat accustomed to the pace of an assault. You can learn good body structure from Wing Chun, but it only matters if you have the patience to really understand and become comfortable with its concepts. Otherwise, you'll look as pathetic as that William Cheung guy. I've seen fights Broad Street more disciplined than that.

[JDK]

GREAT POST!!!!!!

You get my "Vote' for post of the week~

"Its not WHOSE right...its WHAT'S right"
My favorite saying..... JD

[msg]

i agree with phillykid81 boxing i think is good to start of with my very first teacher was a golden glove from boston he allways said punches in bunches .so boxing is a good foundation to build from

[Shaolin Wookie]

i want to hear more about the marine/ shotgun incident. thats one of the coolest things i've ever heard. got a link to an article or anything?

I'll see if I can find something on it. It happened just a while ago. I'll post a link if I can get my webfu on it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's some links on the MArine that kicked the shotty out of a robber's hand, then stabbed someone with a pocketknife:

It's not as glamorous as it sounds.....but I gotta tell ya.....he had some sand....

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=80405

http://www.newschannel5.tv/News/Othe...nta--kills-one

That part about the cut on the hand and a bruise on the chest made me laugh. It's sad that anyone had to die in such a stupid manner (for money---especially a teenage chick), but if you're going to survive at the point of two guns, with nothing but a pocketknife at your side.....that was the way to do it. Not that he could tell, though. They were all wearing masks.

Streets are safer because of him, I guess. They'd already robbed several people in hte area.....and sooner or later one of those guns was going to get used---that's pretty much guaranteed.

Only reinforces my confidence in knives.

[kidswarrior]

The biggest problem with all martial arts is the people that practice them. They have a set of assumptions in mind: a punch will be a hook rather than a cross, for instance. They'll design the perfect techinque to counter it until they get a 1-2 jab hook combination. Then the technique's out the window. The funny thing about any martial art is that it attempts to bring structure and order to something that's inherently chaotic, namely fighting.

A system's principles will work in a street fight, rehearsed techinques won't.

Agree with the first sentence to a degree--the problem for many (I wouldn't say all) is their own presuppositions about what will always or will never work. This all or nothing/always or never thinking (inflexibility and lack of adaptability) is dangerous. Instead, maybe we need to view techniques as possible responses to possible scenarios--backed up by plenty of free flowing simulations of street defense (forms--especially with innovative and evolving bunkai--and some types of partner work can enhance this).

So while techniques may not always work as learned verbatim, I still believe there is a place for them. When the movements are ingrained, there is a good chance that when faced with a crisis, the seasoned martial artist's muscle memory and intuituve sense will take over and make new combinations from pieces of the old formulated techniques in response to the confrontation. This is just a different take on the original poster's next thought, that a system's principles will work more often than prescribed techniques. I would like to add, systems don't get into fights, people do, so experience (muscle memory/intuition) must take over. In fact the poster makes this point about his own sport:

I just have enough experience playing the sport that I'm able to analyze the situation and deduce what options are available to me at any given point in time.

All in all, an excellent post, and certainly much that deserves further thought by those of us who study the martial arts.

[lonewolf]

i agree with phillykid81 boxing i think is good to start of with my very first teacher was a golden glove from boston he allways said punches in bunches .so boxing is a good foundation to build from

while many people may agree with this philosophy and i too learned in this order i wish i would have learned wrestling or jujistu first. most street fights end up on the ground and we all can admit that in the UFC not many don't end up going to the ground. does any body here remember the very first UFC. a professonal boxer against hoyce gracey. the boxer goes down and never comes back up. learning to go to the ground is a whole new ball game and it's hard to undo the training that comes with a stand up game.

[msg]

tired of all the royce gracey hype he won because the people he fought played his game that was there mistake

[lonewolf]

tired of all the royce gracey hype he won because the people he fought played his game that was there mistake

hey i don't like the hype either. jujistu is boring whenit comes to the entertainment side of the sport, but i have to say that there was no option given when fighting him. kimo for while was the only one that tried to make sure he wasn't going to play gracey's game but was still submitted, gracey wasn't able to continue the tournament because kimo beat him to bad but kimo still lost. i don't care what style you practice, i'd like to see you in the ring with gracey.

[kidswarrior]

tired of all the royce gracey hype he won because the people he fought played his game that was there mistake

I actually agree with this, but weren't we talking about self defense? As in street/alley/parking lot of movie theater, etc.? This is much different than MMA bouts. I believe the thread started out even mentioning guns. Now Gracie, Kimo...or whoever, would be hard pressed to put a gun holder in an armbar

[lonewolf]

if a man points a gun at you... you give him your wallet. duh, everybody knows that. self defense isn't just fighting. it's knowing how to come out of a bad situation alive.