How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

[debo108]

Regardless of what we say about taekwondo, it is the most popular MA. It seems to offer people what they want in a martial sport or martial art! Take your pick.
It is organized, skills are transferrable, and agility, strength and conditioning are part of the health and fitness area.

All this without empty force, chi **** and other wily creations of the New Age tai chi movement! Dig that!
is wizz ( w i z z) a bad word?

yo, this guy is on some crazy stuff! for one, it shows you have absolutely NO DEPTH of knowledge regarding martial arts and second you have depth to your own practice. 'chi' or empty force as it is more often reffered to in CMA circles is anything but a new age or tai chi invention. it is one of the fundemental principles of chinese medicine theory and has been so for thousands of years.

you need to get an education my friend.

[msg]

i have to totaly agree with you tkd its all emty movements it all relieys on external strengh and momentom you stop that and its very easy to over come ...i know some people are going to disagree with that not trying to say anything bad .there is a lot of MA like that most karate to. just to perdictable alot of emty movements ......and talking about karate see if this makes sence to you or even right ..a karate dojo opened and is looking for instructers they said they were looking for anybody with any kind of MA background if none ok the will train you in 4 weeks time so you can teach for them and you get 60 percent of that class u teach can anybody say money scam thats such crap to do that it bring MA a bad name ...i forgot the name i will get it again and let anybody who want to know who they are so nobody gets riped off

[kidswarrior]

Question for lonewolf....


This is how the thread opened:

How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I truly believe the best defence is a Gun.

Your post:

if a man points a gun at you... you give him your wallet. duh, everybody knows that. self defense isn't just fighting. it's knowing how to come out of a bad situation alive.

So, are you agreeing, or disagreeing with the first poster?
And duh, I can be a little slow, but just wanted to nail down whether you're taking exception to my post or his?

[JDK]

To All,

I have been doing some thinking...and I guess in my enthusiasm I came on
much too strong with my personal beliefs. I don’t have all the answers and AM
still in search of Truth....I have so much to learn, like all of us.

Please forgive.

I want to talk Martial Arts from now on...so I will restrict my posts
To that Subject. Anything else...feel free to send me a Private Message

Again...sorry to have stirred up so much hostility and controversy...that was
never my intention

JDK
Eliom12@sbcglobal.net

PS I Would lke to return to my Original question....WHY have NO Pure Traditionalist Kung-Fu Students or Masters entered and WON the UFC ? Even withoput eye gouging, fish hooking, and groin strikes allowed... somebody somewhere to authenticate and Vindicate TMA's would use Iron Body, Palm,Dim Mak, Iron Vest, Stone Warrior, etc...

So why not ? Not looking for excuses here...we ALL know somewhere, some student or master would win it if he could, if for nothing more than the satisfaction of winning the money, vindicating TMA'sm etc..

The New JDK

[kidswarrior]

[B]To All,

I have been doing some thinking...and I guess in my enthusiasm I came on
much too strong with my personal beliefs. I don’t have all the answers and AM
still in search of Truth....I have so much to learn, like all of us.

Please forgive.

JDK

Takes a big man to admit when he may be wrong. Thanks for making a courageous public statement to that effect. You have my utmost respect.

In fact, your action here to promote peace whenever possible goes to my belief about why there is no TMA movement underway to defeat MMA's in a contest (octagon, whatever). I personally see the ultimate goal of TMA as building the calm, confident demeanor to walk away from an antagonist whenever possible (if he leaves us no choice, well then, that's the other part of why we train). MMA is intended for the opposite: taking on the antagonist no matter what, and from what I've seen, further antagonizing and attempting to intimidate him leading up to the fight. This posturing, hubris, and trash talking is also why I don't watch boxing anymore.

So here's my question: would a TMA who showed up for a MMA event get a standing ovation for turning and walking away rather than fighting? If not, maybe
that is our answer to why we haven't seen more TMAs in contests: any TMA/CMA master who glorified and promoted violence is not someone I would want to train with, emulate, or send my students to. Fortunately, I don't personally know of any.

[lonewolf]

Question for lonewolf....


This is how the thread opened:


Your post:



So, are you agreeing, or disagreeing with the first poster?
And duh, I can be a little slow, but just wanted to nail down whether you're taking exception to my post or his?

i disagree with the first poster. the best self defense weapon is your brain. a gun's purpose isn't defending anything, it's killing something. in using a gun there is always the chance that not only will you kill your attacker but someone else that isn't involved. bullets aren't selective in who it strikes but a martial artist can be.

[kidswarrior]

i disagree with the first poster. the best self defense weapon is your brain. a gun's purpose isn't defending anything, it's killing something. in using a gun there is always the chance that not only will you kill your attacker but someone else that isn't involved. bullets aren't selective in who it strikes but a martial artist can be.

Then I agree with you wholeheartedly!! Whenever someone (like one of the teens I work with ) tells me they have a gun for self defense, I always ask, So your bullet is going to intercept his bullet, or act as a shield around you? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[SevenStar]

In fact, your action here to promote peace whenever possible goes to my belief about why there is no TMA movement underway to defeat MMA's in a contest (octagon, whatever). I personally see the ultimate goal of TMA as building the calm, confident demeanor to walk away from an antagonist whenever possible (if he leaves us no choice, well then, that's the other part of why we train). MMA is intended for the opposite: taking on the antagonist no matter what, and from what I've seen, further antagonizing and attempting to intimidate him leading up to the fight. This posturing, hubris, and trash talking is also why I don't watch boxing anymore.

no, MMA and boxing are professional level events... they get paid for them... humans like drama and creates interest... their interest sells tickets. Period. Most of the mma guys I know are more humble and calm than most of the tma that I know. That is a trait which competition is great at building. At the end of the day, it's about the competition. I've beaten guys who after losing offered to buy drinks. A guy that I lost to came to my school afterward to train. mma guys are no different from anyone else. People unitiated to mma - like many on this board - don't know that.

So here's my question: would a TMA who showed up for a MMA event get a standing ovation for turning and walking away rather than fighting? If not, maybe
that is our answer to why we haven't seen more TMAs in contests: any TMA/CMA master who glorified and promoted violence is not someone I would want to train with, emulate, or send my students to. Fortunately, I don't personally know of any.

I love it when people try to rationalize something so simple. you don't see tma in mma because on average, they lose. the tma training regimen would have to drastically change in order for it to be successful, and many are not willing to do that. Consequently, they don't compete in the mma venue. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just preference. How can a tma compete in forms and point tournies, then say they have no desire to compete, so they don't do mma? that's crap. That applies to any venue. You have to train a certain way for it. I for example, being primarily a contact guy, regularly got points taken away from me in point sparring tournies for excessive contact. I can spar lightly, but when competing, it wasn't what I was used to - that wasn't the venue I was training for.

Look at san shou. it's a competition venue stemming from traditional cma. However, I bet a lot of cma would suck at it. Why? because they don't train for that venue. Bottom line is that it's an issue of training for the venue and whether or not you want to train for that venue.

Several cma and jma - even some on this forum - have competed in mma. If tma won more often, you would actually see MORE tma competing, because people would be flocking to it to train. Honestly, I'm expecting to see a boom in san shou in the coming years. san shou combined with wrestling, IMO would be great for mma, and now that there are some san shou guys doing mma, I think it's popularity will slowly increase. Once the san shou guys start fighting in the major events, it will greatly increase.

To answer your question though, no, he would not get a standing ovation. Why? because mma events aren't spur of the moment like a point tourney, where a bunch of people just enter. you are told months ahead of time who your opponent is, and your opponent trains specifically for you. If it's a pro event, there is money involved. Even if it's amateur, spectators pay for tickets. By showing for the event, then walking away, you are wasting people's time and money. No way would you receive a standing ovation for that.

[SevenStar]

Then I agree with you wholeheartedly!! Whenever someone (like one of the teens I work with ) tells me they have a gun for self defense, I always ask, So your bullet is going to intercept his bullet, or act as a shield around you? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

now let's ask the reverse. Someone shoots at you - is your martial art going to act like a shield? will you be able to dodge every bullet until you get close enough to disarm him? What if you attacker has a knife? chances are, you will be cut, unless you run. If you HAVE to defend against a knife, would you rather do it with an empty hand, or with a knife? Guns, knives, spray, etc can all be used as self defense implementations. As lone wolf mentioned, your brain is the self defense weapon, but your brain knows how to manifest a defense method through the gun, just as it does your bare hands.

[SevenStar]

PS I Would lke to return to my Original question....WHY have NO Pure Traditionalist Kung-Fu Students or Masters entered and WON the UFC ? Even withoput eye gouging, fish hooking, and groin strikes allowed... somebody somewhere to authenticate and Vindicate TMA's would use Iron Body, Palm,Dim Mak, Iron Vest, Stone Warrior, etc...

So why not ? Not looking for excuses here...we ALL know somewhere, some student or master would win it if he could, if for nothing more than the satisfaction of winning the money, vindicating TMA'sm etc..

The New JDK

Training. A standup TMA - karate, pretty much any style of kung fu except dog, chang taiji or shuai chiao, tkd, etc all focus on stand up striking. They may have standup grappling in the system, but it generally has a backseat and there is typically no ground grappling at all, unless it was brought in for another art. It is virtually impossible to win an mma match without having knowledge of the ground game. In addition, you have to train for the venue, be it three, five or ten minute rounds. You can't just take tma classes and go fight mma. You have to train for the mma venue. THAT is why none have won. improper training for the venue. On the same token, most mma would get owned in a boxing match. it's not what they train for. The mma, being used to pacing himself for 5 mins, would be in trouble trying to pace for 3 minute boxing rounds - his pacing and timing are thrown off. Likewise for the boxer who tries to fight a 5 minute mma round without training for it. Competition is very specific.

[SevenStar]

i have to totaly agree with you tkd its all emty movements it all relieys on external strengh and momentom you stop that and its very easy to over come ...i know some people are going to disagree with that not trying to say anything bad .there is a lot of MA like that most karate to. just to perdictable alot of emty movements ......and talking about karate see if this makes sence to you or even right ..a karate dojo opened and is looking for instructers they said they were looking for anybody with any kind of MA background if none ok the will train you in 4 weeks time so you can teach for them and you get 60 percent of that class u teach can anybody say money scam thats such crap to do that it bring MA a bad name ...i forgot the name i will get it again and let anybody who want to know who they are so nobody gets riped off

it sounds like you have never seen really good karate. And scammers are everywhere. I have personally met CMA scammers.

[SevenStar]

I actually agree with this, but weren't we talking about self defense? As in street/alley/parking lot of movie theater, etc.? This is much different than MMA bouts. I believe the thread started out even mentioning guns. Now Gracie, Kimo...or whoever, would be hard pressed to put a gun holder in an armbar

BJJ has gun defenses, just like your art does. I wouldn't try ANY from ANY STYLE unless absolutely necessary, but yes, a bjj guy can arm bar a gun weilder and disarm him, just as you have disarms in your style.

[SevenStar]

i think most not all MA would work on the street you just have to remember it does not allways look like the forms you practice but it willwork .Or the differnt MA styles that are hundreds of years old would not still be around

yeah they would. as long as there is some interest for WHATEVER reason - look at tai chi for health - the average person doesn't even know it is also a fighting style - it's popular for the health benefits. it's all about supply and demand. If you ask most people - and we have actually done this on the main forum a couple of times - most people will tell you that learning to fight is not their primary reason for training. It's usually fitness, confidence or in the case of kids, discipline.

[JDK]

So I must conclude my original suspicions ( and commen sense) were correct.

Todays TOP fighters in the UFC, Pride Fighting, etc...will dominate every Kung-Fu guy out there, regardless of Iron everything.
Regardless of QI GONG
Regardless of Dim Mak
Regardless of anything short of the traditional Kung-fu Karate guys learning grappling, full contact sparring , Jujitsu, western boxing and cardio endurance.

So my opinion is this....Traditonal Chinese Japanese, and Korean Arts ususally work on the street against the average joe ( assuming the martial artist has trained HARD in his karate,..etc...) and the average Joe while not a trained fighter isnt a concrete jawed, drugged up, steroided up monster who has several years in real bar Fight experience...

But since 1993, no TMA from the above mentioned schools, relying only on their Traditional Training...has never won any of the 68 UFC events...and never will.

It is a case of 2007 Fighters have evolved and become to big, to fast, too strong, and too well versed in several disciplines to be challenged by the Karate Guys who go full speed and full contact with or without pads.

Otherwise...all the other excuses and philosophy disussions are for another thread.

I will sum it up like this.

If we were able to Pit the 1968 Greenbay Packers under Vince Lumbardy against the 2007 Baltimore Colts..the Packers, who are from another era without the weights, nutrition, specialized coaches, diet and advanced knowledge the Colts would have...we would not only witness a blow out scoring wise..but the Packer Players from that tme would no doubt recieve serious injuries.

Agreed?

JDK

[SevenStar]

So I must conclude my original suspicions ( and commen sense) were correct.

Todays TOP fighters in the UFC, Pride Fighting, etc...will dominate every Kung-Fu guy out there, regardless of Iron everything.
Regardless of QI GONG
Regardless of Dim Mak
Regardless of anything short of the traditional Kung-fu Karate guys learning grappling, full contact sparring , Jujitsu, western boxing and cardio endurance.

that's not what I said. I said you have to train for the venue. dim mak won't matter. qi gong won't matter. However, they won't have to learn western boxing, either. longfist striking, for example, would work fine. BUT, in mma they MUST grapple. there is no way around that. Otherwise, they will be hopelessly lost once they get taken down. there is plenty of grappling out there though - they don't HAVE to train bjj, though. they can train judo, wrestling, catch, etc. A member on this forum - ultimatewingchun - trains wing chun and catch wrestling.

the requirements are proper training for the venue and a combination of striking and grappling. Without those, you don't stand a chance, whether you are traditional or sport based. A western boxer with no ground game would be lost in mma as well.

So my opinion is this....Traditonal Chinese Japanese, and Korean Arts ususally work on the street against the average joe ( assuming the martial artist has trained HARD in his karate,..etc...) and the average Joe while not a trained fighter isnt a concrete jawed, drugged up, steroided up monster who has several years in real bar Fight experience...

But since 1993, no TMA from the above mentioned schools, relying only on their Traditional Training...has never won any of the 68 UFC events...and never will.

they don't train for the venue. that said, you have a few guys with a traditional base who do really well, but they now train for the mma venue. cung le, david louisseau, georges st pierre...

It is a case of 2007 Fighters have evolved and become to big, to fast, too strong, and too well versed in several disciplines to be challenged by the Karate Guys who go full speed and full contact with or without pads.

No. It is a matter of training for the venue, as I keep saying. Put the mma guy in a kyokusinkai match and he may get stomped, because it's not what he trains for.

If we were able to Pit the 1968 Greenbay Packers under Vince Lumbardy against the 2007 Baltimore Colts..the Packers, who are from another era without the weights, nutrition, specialized coaches, diet and advanced knowledge the Colts would have...we would not only witness a blow out scoring wise..but the Packer Players from that tme would no doubt recieve serious injuries.

the colts left baltimore in like 1983...