How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

[SevenStar]

I agree that you will see small joint manipulation, kicks to the knee, eye gouging, etc in venues that would allow them no matter what kind of martial artists enter. But something like a panther fist is CMA.

panther fist.... that's the same as a half knuckle, right? I learned in in both tang soo do and jma.

I wouldn't say that. Sparring is sparring and will build stamina no matter what stylist is doing it. CMA has punching, blocking, and evading drills as well. To some extent, you can even compare forms to shadow boxing using various combo sets. I also see no reason why a CMA guy can't freestyle shadowbox using his stuff either.

I think you missed my point. sure a cma can do those things. but those are the core of what a boxer does. When a cma does forms, he's not training techniques and combinations how he would use them in a fight, necessarily. A boxer is. Qigong training is not building my attributes at the same time as it trains my striking as I would use it in a fight, etc. When I hit mitts, the bag, spar, etc. I am punching the entire time. The whole workout I am getting cardio AND training my technique. it's simultaneous. much of tma is not that way.

There's many great longfist guys. If I name or post a video of any one of them, or even an average longfist guy, he'll likely have better hands then a lousy boxer. And lousy boxers do exist.

why compare a great longfist guy to a lousy boxer?

And even if we are comparing said longfist guys to skilled boxers, who is to say that the boxer will always have better hands? Sure boxing is all about punching but I can name styles of CMA that focus more on a single aspect too (perhaps not to the extent of boxing though). Take Wing Chun for example. They have some kicks and other stuff but the system is more hand focused.

you said it - they focus on punching, but not to the extent of boxing. I remember seeing threads on the WC forum where wc guys have said boxing has superior hands to wc. There have also been several threads on cross training wc and boxing.

That doesn't necessarily mean a Wing Chun guy will have better hands then someone from a CMA that isn't as hand focused. It depends on the person. Overall though, I’d say longfist styles have more variety of hand techniques then boxing. So if the longfist guy can use his extensive arsenal better, why wouldn’t he have better hands? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying boxing sucks. It’s not a complete system though. So to be a complete fighter, you can’t rely solely on boxing. Crosstraining in it is fine towards that end though.

having many tools only means that - you have many tools. simplicity is a wonderful thing. boxing and judo, boxing and bjj, etc. the same would be said in terms of longfist and crosstraining - longfist isn't complete.

I would agree that perhaps MMA would be different if TMA did better early on. I think the reason it didn’t is really because of the TMA people rather then the actual TMA.

I don't. The main drawback of the early tma was that they did no grappling and trained improperly for the venue. The fate would've been the same. That said, if tma did get back into mma and cross trained some grappling and adapted their training for the venue, they would do better. That's something I'd like to see.

Muay Thai guys in general spar more then most TMA guys. A lot of TMA guys that entered probably had point sparring as the sum of fighting experience. Many people in TMA also don’t understand the contents of their forms and don’t drill techniques well or enough. Many TMA also guys neglect conditioning. If those guys sparred in more realistic ways, understood their styles, drilled their techniques better, and were well conditioned, the story might be different. So I say it’s not the fault of the actual arts, but many of the current practitioners.

I don't disagree with that. It's always the fault of the practitioner. That said though, the traditional styles don't make provisions for these things - sport styles do. That is one major advantage of them in these events.

[The Xia]

panther fist.... that's the same as a half knuckle, right? I learned in in both tang soo do and jma.

It is a knuckle strike. It's also a Choy Lay Fut signature technique. You can get a bit of information on some ways it can be used on this link. http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/ten_elements.htm
Go to Chop.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if you find a panther fist in Okinawan Karate or Chinese derived Korean arts. After all, it's possible with the Chinese influence. However, in a Vale Tudo match which is mostly BJJ and a few other arts, are you really going to see that?

I think you missed my point. sure a cma can do those things. but those are the core of what a boxer does. When a cma does forms, he's not training techniques and combinations how he would use them in a fight, necessarily. A boxer is. Qigong training is not building my attributes at the same time as it trains my striking as I would use it in a fight, etc. When I hit mitts, the bag, spar, etc. I am punching the entire time. The whole workout I am getting cardio AND training my technique. it's simultaneous. much of tma is not that way.

Qigong does have a purpose in training as do forms. The problem is that many practice them incorrectly. Forms are a catalogue of a given styles techniques. They allow you to work them solo. They also provide conditioning if done well.

why compare a great longfist guy to a lousy boxer?

Just making a point. I think too many people assume that all "sport" martial artists are people who actually fight. This isn't always the case. Although on average, I will agree more "sport" martial artists fight then "traditional" martial artists.

you said it - they focus on punching, but not to the extent of boxing. I remember seeing threads on the WC forum where wc guys have said boxing has superior hands to wc. There have also been several threads on cross training wc and boxing.

There's no problem cross training Wing Chun and boxing. That's fine. However, I still maintain that it's not boxing that has better hands then Wing Chun, but you may find boxers that have better hands then chunners. You may also find chunners that have better hands then boxers. It's all about the individual.

having many tools only means that - you have many tools. simplicity is a wonderful thing. boxing and judo, boxing and bjj, etc. the same would be said in terms of longfist and crosstraining - longfist isn't complete.

Longfist has all sorts of strikes, throws, and joint locks. That's pretty complete to me. That still doesn't mean you can't cross train though. Adding an art with more of a ground fighting focus like Judo or BJJ can't do any harm. Adding a striking art with shorter range techniques like Wing Chun can prove successful as well. I think that adding any art to the mix will be fine so long as the fighter can use it.

I don't. The main drawback of the early tma was that they did no grappling and trained improperly for the venue. The fate would've been the same. That said, if tma did get back into mma and cross trained some grappling and adapted their training for the venue, they would do better. That's something I'd like to see.


I don't disagree with that. It's always the fault of the practitioner. That said though, the traditional styles don't make provisions for these things - sport styles do. That is one major advantage of them in these events.

See, here is the thing. To me, TMA that doesn’t train to fight really isn’t all that traditional. In the past, TMA guys fought. I don’t care if they are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, American, Brazilian, or whatever, anyone who fights will likely have training that reflects that. Drilling and conditioning was huge in the past. Drilling techniques over and over against increasing levels of resistance allows you to learn to use the techniques. They did forms too. But they did forms correctly, with intent and proper body mechanics. They also understood the applications to the forms, and as said before, drilled them constantly. Many of these guys also fought too. That is what is traditional. Because of the fact that many of the old timers actually fought, they really couldn't afford to train like many of the so called traditionalists of today. As far as I’m concerned, doing forms without proper understanding and drilling techniques and conditioning rarely or never isn’t traditional. How did TMA get to this state, well that’s a long story but I think most of us know the answer anyway.

[SevenStar]

It is a knuckle strike. It's also a Choy Lay Fut signature technique. You can get a bit of information on some ways it can be used on this link. http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/ten_elements.htm
Go to Chop.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if you find a panther fist in Okinawan Karate or Chinese derived Korean arts. After all, it's possible with the Chinese influence. However, in a Vale Tudo match which is mostly BJJ and a few other arts, are you really going to see that?

Do you really think anything is new to any style? aside from capoeira and muay thai, I don't think I've seen a lot of techniques that aren't shared across other styles. I would fully expect that at some point in time a brazilian fighter used or discovered a use this strike, particularly if it was used with success.

Qigong does have a purpose in training as do forms. The problem is that many practice them incorrectly. Forms are a catalogue of a given styles techniques. They allow you to work them solo. They also provide conditioning if done well.

I know they have purpose in training. But they are not serving their purpose at the same time that you are learning how to strike. with mitts, I build cardiod while honing my striking. with the bag, I build strength while honing my striking. In shadow boxing, I build cardio while honing my striking. the attributes training and skill training are integrated. that is my point.

Just making a point. I think too many people assume that all "sport" martial artists are people who actually fight. This isn't always the case. Although on average, I will agree more "sport" martial artists fight then "traditional" martial artists.

No, it's not always the case, but the training is the same nonetheless. the ones that come consistently will be in some sort of fighting shape. The guys we have who fight will put in some extra time with coaches after class and on non class days to train, but the actual class training for fighters and non-fighters is the exact same, from the calesthenics to the sparring.

There's no problem cross training Wing Chun and boxing. That's fine. However, I still maintain that it's not boxing that has better hands then Wing Chun, but you may find boxers that have better hands then chunners. You may also find chunners that have better hands then boxers. It's all about the individual.

we'll disagree on that one. theoretically speaking, a TKD guy can have better hands than a boxer. How likely is it? it's not. Why? because of the methodology of tkd.

Longfist has all sorts of strikes, throws, and joint locks. That's pretty complete to me. That still doesn't mean you can't cross train though. Adding an art with more of a ground fighting focus like Judo or BJJ can't do any harm. Adding a striking art with shorter range techniques like Wing Chun can prove successful as well. I think that adding any art to the mix will be fine so long as the fighter can use it.

the ground component is lacking in longfist, which is why I say it's incomplete. All arts will be lacking in some area.

See, here is the thing. To me, TMA that doesn’t train to fight really isn’t all that traditional. In the past, TMA guys fought. I don’t care if they are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, American, Brazilian, or whatever, anyone who fights will likely have training that reflects that.

not the same. the training is venue specific when you are talking about these types of things. training for judo shiai will not prepare me for a muay thai match. training for an mma match will not be the same as training for a san shou match. Regardless of the tma taining to fight, unless they are training specifically to fight mma matches, then they will be handicapped in an mma match. Now from an overall self defense perspecitve, yes, you are correct.

[The Xia]

Do you really think anything is new to any style? aside from capoeira and muay thai, I don't think I've seen a lot of techniques that aren't shared across other styles. I would fully expect that at some point in time a brazilian fighter used or discovered a use this strike, particularly if it was used with success.

I can't say for sure that a pure BJJ guy never used a panther fist or some variation. However, it isn't something trained in BJJ so how will you learn to use it?

I know they have purpose in training. But they are not serving their purpose at the same time that you are learning how to strike. with mitts, I build cardiod while honing my striking. with the bag, I build strength while honing my striking. In shadow boxing, I build cardio while honing my striking. the attributes training and skill training are integrated. that is my point.

You said you build cardio and work on striking while shadowboxing. The same can be said for people who do forms correctly.

No, it's not always the case, but the training is the same nonetheless. the ones that come consistently will be in some sort of fighting shape. The guys we have who fight will put in some extra time with coaches after class and on non class days to train, but the actual class training for fighters and non-fighters is the exact same, from the calesthenics to the sparring.

You can say the same for a good TMA place.

we'll disagree on that one. theoretically speaking, a TKD guy can have better hands than a boxer. How likely is it? it's not. Why? because of the methodology of tkd.

I agree that it wouldn't be likely. But look at what TKD has become. I heard that once upon a time it was different. If this is true, then wouldn't the chances of finding some TKD guys in the past with better hands then some boxers increase?

the ground component is lacking in longfist, which is why I say it's incomplete. All arts will be lacking in some area.

There is ground fighting in CMA. Although with the exception of Shuai Jiao and Fujienese Dog Boxing, it doesn't seem to be a focus. I never said anything is wrong with training more grappling and ground fighting focused styles in addition to more standup focused arts.

not the same. the training is venue specific when you are talking about these types of things. training for judo shiai will not prepare me for a muay thai match. training for an mma match will not be the same as training for a san shou match. Regardless of the tma taining to fight, unless they are training specifically to fight mma matches, then they will be handicapped in an mma match. Now from an overall self defense perspecitve, yes, you are correct.

I agree with you on this.

[Shaolin Wookie]

sure it is - the methodology and techniques differ. But I would say boxing's usage of hands is superior, mainly for the same reasons I always mention. That's not to say boxing is better than longfist overall.
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Watch Andre Ward fight.....all in the feet...but then again, he was playing the "rules" and "scoring card" game rather than the KO game.

Boxers will always have the strongest punch, cuz they line up the shoulder, elbow, and wrist, and this is generally frowned upon in kung fu. With joint manipulation, it sets you up for some nasty stuff, if a good enough practitioner is on the other end.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can't say for sure that a pure BJJ guy never used a panther fist or some variation. However, it isn't something trained in BJJ so how will you learn to use it?

Or more importantly, where and when to use it, the best angle, or with rotation or no rotation, etc....

[The Xia]

Boxers will always have the strongest punch, cuz they line up the shoulder, elbow, and wrist, and this is generally frowned upon in kung fu. With joint manipulation, it sets you up for some nasty stuff, if a good enough practitioner is on the other end.

I still disagree with the notion that a boxer will always have the strongest punch. There are martial artists from various styles that have punches that can match up to boxers. Don't forget that there are many ways to throw a punch. The kind of punches that a boxer throws will not necessarily do the same type of damage then that of other stylists. For example, many styles have a punch where the impact sort of surges through the person's body. It’s really not that far off from an iron palm strike. This can cause a lot of internal damage if someone pulls it off right. What I'm saying is that a punch isn't always the same. Different kinds of hurt and damage can be dealt out with a fist. I'm sure many people on this board know what I'm talking about. Actually, this line of thought has given me an idea for a new thread.

Or more importantly, where and when to use it, the best angle, or with rotation or no rotation, etc....

True. Thanks for elaborating.

[SevenStar]

I can't say for sure that a pure BJJ guy never used a panther fist or some variation. However, it isn't something trained in BJJ so how will you learn to use it?

we were discussing vale tudo. I'm sure they have run across it in training. BJJ, probably not so much.

You said you build cardio and work on striking while shadowboxing. The same can be said for people who do forms correctly.

sure. But not during qigong, weapons, meditation, iron palm, etc. There are more disconnects in cma.

You can say the same for a good TMA place.

I'd say the jury is out on that one. you can't really measure whether or not you are in shape for a street fight. What we can say is that most tma are not ready for sport fighting from normal training alone.

[/quote]I agree that it wouldn't be likely. But look at what TKD has become. I heard that once upon a time it was different. If this is true, then wouldn't the chances of finding some TKD guys in the past with better hands then some boxers increase?[/quote]

no. tkd is kick oriented. older tang soo do had more japanese like hand strikes, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near a boxer's caliber either.

There is ground fighting in CMA. Although with the exception of Shuai Jiao and Fujienese Dog Boxing, it doesn't seem to be a focus. I never said anything is wrong with training more grappling and ground fighting focused styles in addition to more standup focused arts.

ground grappling and ground striking are not the same. I would still consider it incomplete. IMO, having grappling in your forms does not mean much.

[SevenStar]

I still disagree with the notion that a boxer will always have the strongest punch. There are martial artists from various styles that have punches that can match up to boxers. Don't forget that there are many ways to throw a punch. The kind of punches that a boxer throws will not necessarily do the same type of damage then that of other stylists. For example, many styles have a punch where the impact sort of surges through the person's body. It’s really not that far off from an iron palm strike. This can cause a lot of internal damage if someone pulls it off right. What I'm saying is that a punch isn't always the same. Different kinds of hurt and damage can be dealt out with a fist. I'm sure many people on this board know what I'm talking about. Actually, this line of thought has given me an idea for a new thread.

we've actually had some of those discussions before, based off of discussions like the one we are having now. A lot of the cma agreed that power really isn't generated much differently, if at all in most cases.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Rooting is always the basis of power generation, and the ground is our primary weapon. Boxers get power by rotating off of the back foot's toes.....in much CMA (not all....jade ring is kind of like boxing) heel-ground contact is paramount......

[SevenStar]

Rooting is always the basis of power generation, and the ground is our primary weapon. Boxers get power by rotating off of the back foot's toes.....in much CMA (not all....jade ring is kind of like boxing) heel-ground contact is paramount......

sure,but that changes neither the way power is generated, nor the path of its release.

[The Xia]

we've actually had some of those discussions before, based off of discussions like the one we are having now. A lot of the cma agreed that power really isn't generated much differently, if at all in most cases.

Does boxing have duan jing?
It's described here. http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy...tml#principles

Duan Jing: Short Energy
This type of energy emission is less common and is considered a rather advanced method. The energy transmission path is shorter than that of Long Energy and originates at the centre of mass which is supported via the rooting leg. The energy emission begins at the centre of mass and propogates outwards. Down the root and out through the limbs. It is targeted on and acts upon the centre of mass of the opponent directly, using it as a base for a crushing attack that ruptures organs, rends musculature and breaks bones.
The fastest application of such energy is called Leng Jing or Cold Energy. The reason it is called this is that the emission was so sudden that it catches the opponent by great surprise, so great it became fright, causing him to break out in cold sweat.

[SevenStar]

short power? I would argue that it does in some aspect. infighting techniques are all done in close and should be done with no wind up. you can also see yielding, listening and several other energies in boxing and muay thai.

[Mas Judt]

There is significant sophistication in some CMA. But a lot of the stuff those CMA guys think are completely lacking in Muay Thai or Boxing (or no equivilant existing) have not been exposed to good Muay Thai or Boxing. Or they are blind.

There is a reason Western Boxing was incorporated into San Shou - quickest route to usable hand skills.

Honestly, I can't stand the CMA guys who will argue this stuff and not prove it live. On the other hand, I know several who can and do... (Seven, Brian just put the beat down on an MMA challenger to his Long Fist school. How embarrassng is THAT. Of course, they don't know who Brian is or what Long Fist is really like...)

At the end of the day, the conversation should be on training methods, strategy and results. At the end of the day, the only thing worth discussing are usable skills.


-- Oh, Seven, heel down - done correct does change how power is generated and released. Or I should say, it CAN, based upon understanding. Those CMA guys have a lot of wierd stuff.

[SevenStar]

I woulda liked to have seen that - did he actually challenge brian (dumb ass) or did he just talk smack about the school in general?

How does heel down vs heel up change how it's generated?

LOL, the filter censors dumb ass as one word, but not seperately.