Real Tai Chi?

[Scott R. Brown]

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.

Best teachers at last count:

Marin's teacher in China. Chen Yu. Marin's page : http://www.taijigongfu.com/
Gin Soon : http://www.gstaichi.org/
Chen Xiaowang: http://www.worldchentaichi.com/Chen%20Xiaowang.htm
Dan Docherty: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/
Yang Jun: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

All of these people are just human and none have ever shown any fighting ability greater than or equal to the MMA folks.

Hi neilhytholt,

These comments are well said! I appreciate your opinion. Of course many would disagree.

Certainly many people have fantasy ideas about Tai Chi, but this also occurs within other MA as well, including MMA. Many MMA consider it the be all and end all of MA. It isn’t!! It applies itself to a fixed context. Any MA that applies itself to a fixed context will be found to be deficient at times when applied to real world encounters. This is because the real world has innumerable, unpredictable contexts that occur.

I have a good friend who is at a grand-master skill level in IPSKA, an international combat shooting organization. He has been in the military, is presently in law enforcement, has written and had published numerous combat shooting articles in gun magazines and has taught gun tactics and safety. He is good at what he does. Put him in a specific context or an environment conducive to his skills and he will blow 15 holes in any MMAist before the MMAist could get close enough to harm him. Combat shooting is his context. Change the context to favor a MMA and my friend will get his head caved in. If 3 guys hide in the bushes or in a dark room with swords and jump a MMAist the context is within their favor and the MMA will have his skills challenged to their limits just to survive.

Life occurs according to varying contexts. Humans find personal fulfillment in pursuing activities that have value to them within the contexts they prefer. Most Tai Chi practitioners do not train to be heroes in the octagon! Their purposes and motivations are generally different than those who prefer a more hard and physical venue to display and test their skills. This does not make their pursuit of less value, only of different value.

Keep in mind that those who compete, train to win! Within this context, for most, they either win or lose. Those who train to defend themselves, train to survive! If they survive, they win! Surviving within this context does not require the defeat of an opponent as it does within the context of a MMA bout. It only requires maintaining ones safety. The purpose and contexts of the two perspectives are different and cannot be reasonably contrasted in a negative manner. It is comparing apples to oranges.

Some individuals, like Ray Pina, try to combine Tai Chi principles within their MMA experience and seem to find value and success within their experience. There is a real world martial application to Tai Chi and there are historical references to its successful usage. The fact an individual cannot find any value from their own perspective does not necessitate its non-existence.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

So many words, so little demonstration, so few concrete names of who these real teachers are.

And, the same can be said of this quote.. words!! Where is "neilhytholt", who are you.. what are your credentials.. where is your demonstration?

Real teachers i have trained with: W.C.C.Chen; Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming; Wei Lun Huang; Li En Jiu; David Chin; and others... Demonstrations? Available upon request..

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.

Honestly, have you, really? I doubt that you have made any real inquiries, made any real journies.. if you haven't crossed hands with the teachers i have named your search is flawed. Maturity and perseverance are useful virtues.

Be well..

[dleungnyc]

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.

Best teachers at last count:

Marin's teacher in China. Chen Yu. Marin's page : http://www.taijigongfu.com/
Gin Soon : http://www.gstaichi.org/
Chen Xiaowang: http://www.worldchentaichi.com/Chen%20Xiaowang.htm
Dan Docherty: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/
Yang Jun: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

All of these people are just human and none have ever shown any fighting ability greater than or equal to the MMA folks.

I know what you are saying, trust me, my view on Tai Chi in the past was pretty low, that is, until I met my current teacher.

From my limited experience, 'real' Tai Chi is very difficult to be 'seen', it has to be 'experience', 'feel'. Until my current teacher 'demonstrated' on me, I didn't believe it either.

And to compare any practioners in any MA to folks in MMA is like comparing apples to oranges. I will just use myself as an example, IF I am involve in a situation that requires my martial arts training. The opening shot from me will be going for the eyes, throat or groin(Not saying I will be successful), failing that, my next target would be the knees and ankles and looking for ways step on/kick to break them. I doubt many MMA folks spends much time training to protect those areas, since its against the rules that they are training for to strike those areas (eyes, throat and groin).

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, I don't have any credentials. I am a loser. But I'm not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.

It's just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!

Anyway, my point kindof isn't that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren't testing your skills, you probably don't have any.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven't forgotten)..

About 17 years ago i was introduced to Taiji as a way to recover from a slipped disc (L4-5 of all places).. for the first five years i believed the hype, then was schooled again by Muay Thai.. since then, i have been diligent in my pursuit of Taiji excellence (not that i'm there, just diligent)..

Don't be too quick to judge, there are quite a few out there that test Taiji regularly and with gusto.. I test Taiji and myself as often as i can.. WCC Chen's students are very well trained and capable Taiji fighters.. David Chin's student Chris Heintzman is a regular Cage winner with great Taiji skills.. There's a lot more going on than most people are aware of..

Be well..

[yangyang]

Yeah, I don't have any credentials. I am a loser. But I'm not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.

It's just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!

Anyway, my point kindof isn't that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren't testing your skills, you probably don't have any.

At least my teacher made it on your list. LOL. Seriously though, I think you have a good point. A lot of tai chi people today NEVER test what they are learning outside of their own students. I think it's good for your personal developement to test your skills from time to time. No need to be afraid of losing, because losing is what teaches you.

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven't forgotten)..

About 17 years ago i was introduced to Taiji as a way to recover from a slipped disc (L4-5 of all places).. for the first five years i believed the hype, then was schooled again by Muay Thai.. since then, i have been diligent in my pursuit of Taiji excellence (not that i'm there, just diligent)..

Don't be too quick to judge, there are quite a few out there that test Taiji regularly and with gusto.. I test Taiji and myself as often as i can.. WCC Chen's students are very well trained and capable Taiji fighters.. David Chin's student Chris Heintzman is a regular Cage winner with great Taiji skills.. There's a lot more going on than most people are aware of..

Be well..

See, finally some names. Thank you very much!

[imperialtaichi]

Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven't forgotten)..

That's the thing. I know that because I am smaller built, there is just NO WAY I can win in a fight by trading punches with a boxer/Muay Thai/bigger person. Plus I don't want to train myself by damaging my body (kicking coconuts is not perticularly good for my legs). I had street fights when I was a teenager because I was "angry". My right knuckles are permantly disfigured from the hard stuff I trained before.

Tai Chi had given me a totally new set of skills to deal with these difficult opponents, without further damage to the body.

I know a good teacher is hard to find, because all these flower-child-hippies are turning it into some esoteric play thing and ruining the name. When every Tom D!ck and Harry is teaching Tai Chi, the real skillful guys just get lost in the market. The real Tai Chi is a very useful tool in many ways. If you look into it, you will find it in the most unusual place.

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Yeah, I don't have any credentials. I am a loser. But I'm not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.

It's just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!

Anyway, my point kind of isn't that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren't testing your skills, you probably don't have any.

Hi neilhytholt,

You are not a loser. It seems that you are disillusioned and discouraged, there is a difference! That fact that you were schooled by boxers is a gift, not a curse! You learned relatively early that you were living the MA fantasy! Many schools make their money off this fantasy and encourage it. Many schools do not train students for real life encounters because they train within a different context than “REAL” streetfighters train. Punching and kicking the air is not real fighting and neither is most MA sparring. Boxers train to actually hit people and withstand being hit. They know how to give and take “REAL” punishment because they train for it. They continually condition their bodies to withstand the punishment of being hit. If an individual wishes to learn to “ACTUALLY” defend themselves then they must train to do so and not live within the MA fantasy!

We all get discouraged sometimes. Now is the time to take a look at your personal goals and find the training you really desire. This means if you want to “REALLY” fight you are going to have to go where “REAL” fighters train. You will have to actually get hit in your training, get your joints twisted and your body tossed around a bit. You will take “REAL” punishment and this will toughen you up for “REAL” life encounters. Training needs to be as true to life as possible while maintaining your relative safety. There is no better way to prepare oneself for a “REAL” fight.

This does not mean that MA training is useless. But it is important to understand the context within which one is training. As I said earlier, even MMA can be easily defeated by changing the context beyond their abilities. This is the law of combat that has ensured victory for thousands of years. This is also one of the reasons Alexander the Great was Great! He changed the context of his battle strategy to methods beyond the experience, understanding and ability of his foes. His foes could not adapt to his unanticipated tactics and they were easily defeated. This same principle applies to individual combat.

You were living the MA fantasy! Now you are free from the bondage of your illusion and can choose to live the MA reality. Now you can look for instruction that provides you with practical skills, but it may take some time to find the type of instructor you desire. You are not the first person to learn this discouraging lesson so you are not alone. My brother-in-law learned this painful lesson in a harsher manner. His best friend trained in the MA for some 15-20 years and was a former Special Forces soldier with combat experience. He was shot and was killed by a person with a .25 cal hand gun and absolutely “NO” MA training. His assailant was a woman who was smart enough to change the context of their encounter to her advantage even though she couldn’t fight her way out of a paper bag. He is dead and she has life in jail. My brother-in-law never trained again because his years of emotional investment in the MA fantasy was destroyed in an instant and he could not resolve the reality with his fantasy, that is, MA training OF ANY KIND does not make one invincible. No matter how well trained you are, you will never be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! Bullets, hammers to the head, motor vehicles and brutal street thugs CAN AND WILL KILL YOU no matter how skilled you think you are!

That is life!

[neilhytholt]

Hi neilhytholt,

You are not a loser. It seems that you are disillusioned and discouraged, there is a difference! That fact that you were schooled by boxers is a gift, not a curse! You learned relatively early that you were living the MA fantasy! Many schools make their money off this fantasy and encourage it. Many schools do not train students for real life encounters because they train within a different context than “REAL” streetfighters train. ...

This event of my getting beat down by boxers happened almost 20 years ago now. I'm not very worried about it.

I'm not disillusioned and discouraged (well, yes a little bit, at all the CMA teachers who are teaching fancy panced wushu these days). And, the fact that every teacher requires me to take their version of their forms, which is a complete and utter waste of time.

We all get discouraged sometimes. Now is the time to take a look at your personal goals and find the training you really desire. This means if you want to “REALLY” fight you are going to have to go where “REAL” fighters train. You will have to actually get hit in your training, get your joints twisted and your body tossed around a bit. You will take “REAL” punishment and this will toughen you up for “REAL” life encounters. Training needs to be as true to life as possible while maintaining your relative safety. There is no better way to prepare oneself for a “REAL” fight

This does not mean that MA training is useless.

Been there, done that. Never said I thought MA training was useless. IMHO most martial arts training isn't very useful especially that which just focuses on forms.

You were living the MA fantasy! Now you are free from the bondage of your illusion and can choose to live the MA reality. Now you can look for instruction that provides you with practical skills, but it may take some time to find the type of instructor you desire.

I can't seem to find the kind of instructor who (a) teaches hardcore combat applications and (b) teaches them in a way that is relatively safe (meaning with control) and (c) is easy to deal with and doesn't have an attitude.

You know of one, please let me know.

But honestly, I'm kindof over that. Every instructor wants you to do things their way, and I'm a bit tired of that control thing. In fact, I'm pretty much over studying with teachers since they're all pretty much annoying IMHO. Haven't met one (other than my first teacher) that isn't highly opinionated, and just lets you be, or doesn't play weird political games. IMHO politics in CMA is one of the worst things. I don't want to waste my time and $$$ on that anymore.

Honestly I haven't found a teacher better than my 1st teacher. He's retired now, but he was nice, he was genuinely excited by martial arts, he didn't charge us a ton, he let us do our own thing if we wanted to (you want to focus on nunchuka? great! You want to do staff? Great! You want to do forms this week? Great! You want to beat up each other with sticks today? Great!) It's almost impossible to find a teacher like that these days.

Anyways, teachers only can do so much. I don't really expect very much of teachers anymore.

You are not the first person to learn this discouraging lesson so you are not alone. My brother-in-law learned this painful lesson in a harsher manner. His best friend trained in the MA for some 15-20 years and was a former Special Forces soldier with combat experience. He was shot and was killed by a person with a .25 cal hand gun and absolutely “NO” MA training. His assailant was a woman who was smart enough to change the context of their encounter to her advantage even though she couldn’t fight her way out of a paper bag. He is dead and she has life in jail. My brother-in-law never trained again because his years of emotional investment in the MA fantasy was destroyed in an instant and he could not resolve the reality with his fantasy, that is, MA training OF ANY KIND does not make one invincible.

Yeah, you shouldn't train to be 'invincible'. MA training is for personal self defense, IMHO, and you shouldn't spend too much time on it since you're likely to die of other causes anyway.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

I cannot disagree with any of your comments.

One of the worst things about MAs are the prevailing attitudes of the instructors and students. Unfortunately serious MA training for real life combat is not a field that attracts large numbers of nice people. Many instructors (and students) are inherently insecure people with the need to feel powerful and important. When training in a serious manner you want to be confident your partner does not have some psychological need to dominate EVERYONE in a manner that makes your training with them dangerous. I have had partners like this and trained in schools that did not properly supervise these types of individuals. Not only that, they wouldn’t let me correct the technique or make comments to my partner that would reduce the likelihood of me being injured. Needless to say I did not continue at that school.

I am with you on the basic structure of classes too. At some point people know what it s that they want to learn and there is a lot of wasted time playing the political game of the school or instructor.

Why not try a boxing gym? I love boxing training. I am training my boys now and it is primarily boxing, modified aikido and basic grappling skills.

Remember, not everyone trains to be a badass. Some people just enjoy the exercise and pretending to be Shaolin monks or faux-samurai! I only really train now because I like the exercise. I find most schools tedious so I no longer attend although I will most likely return to Tai Chi classes in the next 5 years or so just because I enjoy it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i largely agree with the sentiments regarding Taiji fighting skills and the lack of qualified instructors in that aspect of Taiji, i am also compelled to take a broader perspective of Taiji. It has come to the point that so many people are so narrowly focused on "Taiji fighting" that we risk losing so many other real benefits of the art. Not to mention that i take exception to the following prejudicial and discriminatory remark:

I know a good teacher is hard to find, because all these flower-child-hippies are turning it into some esoteric play thing and ruining the name.

I can assure you that i know several "hippies" that can hand 90% of MA fighters their butts on a platter.. I am an old Hippie and it is BS to assume that it is the "hippie-types" ruining Taiji. It is a broad range of unfocused MA socialites that want to be seen as Martial Artists, not just "hippies"..

It is unfortunate that all aspects of Taiji can't coexist for the benefit of the Art as a whole. Self-defense is foundational to Taiji but there are many more benefits, too.. superior health enhancing qualities, advanced meditative skills, beneficial philosophical perspectives and general flexibility improvements just to name a few.. In the same manner that we fear losing the fighting aspects, we could lose other valuable benefits by too narrowly focusing on any single aspect of the art. Fighting is supported by enhanced health derived from Taiji practice, it is supported by enhanced awarenesses derived from Taiji's meditative skills, Taiji's fighting skills are judicially used according to wisdoms gained by philosophical insights, and those fighting skills are improved with the greater degrees of flexibility from Taiji training... But, there is an elitist attitude that suggests that if someone isn't training to be a hardcore fighter, their Taiji is deficient.

Like the field of medicine, Taiji has its specialties.. fighting, meditation, health, philosophy.. and, the "general practitioner"... While someone's interest may be limited to fighting, it is also appropriate to acknowledge the contributions of other "specialists" to the general advancement of the Art. One of Taiji's major attractions is its well-rounded curriculum, it has something for everyone. If it were just another Fighting System it would be lost in the crowd. The fighter may well benefit from a health advocate's insights, or a meditator's awareness enhancing insights, etc... Taiji's suburban popularity exposes so many more people to its benefits and its self-defense potential that we may gain martial interest from unlikely sources, people that had no idea they could develop such capabilities..

In the Central Florida area we are blessed with a good Taiji community.. there are several good schools and independent teachers.. many are skilled healers, advanced meditation teachers, Yoga or dance instructors... and most are at least aware of, or hands-on involved with real self-defense skills, too.. We have a local club that meets monthly for dinner, activities and regularly scheduled "push-meets".. this club is not exclusive to anyones Taiji perspective or lineage and, we have seen great benefits from all perspectives.. we have over 100 members (30 or so that are regularly active).. we have several world-class teachers of fighting skills and a very active CMA/MA/MMA community... Very little conflict between schools/styles and a great interactive learning environment..

It has been my experience that the Arts advance through cooperation not exclusion or prejudice and discrimination... not everyone trains to be the next world champion, nor should they.. at some level, i think MA should hope that its necessity as self-defense would fade away in favor of an evolved and harmonious society.. but, until then, train well and be prepared..

Be well..

[qiphlow]

to taichibob and scott r. brown:
thanks, gentlemen, for being (once again) the voice of reason!

[unkokusai]

I can assure you that i know several "hippies" that can hand 90% of MA fighters their butts on a platter.. .

How did you come up with that %? And wouldn't "Hippy" imply someone uninterested in learning the combat applications anyway?

[yangyang]

Very well said Bob. That's the best answer to the fighting question that I have ever read. Must be all that Florida sunshine that maintains sanity.