Real Tai Chi?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

I'm not really looking for a fighting tai chi instructor. I am looking for one, meaning, I am looking for evidence of one.

TaiChiBob offered you some free lessons. Take him up on it and let us know what you think!

You seem to think I'm trolling when I say that IMHO that tai chi is nothing but long fist + push-hands.

First let me apologize! I try not to make firm statements when assessing another person’s motivations since on a BB it is difficult to make these accurate. I should have said it “APPEARS” you “MAY” be trolling, and not implied you “ARE” a troll. Maybe you are, maybe you aren’t, but it is beginning to appear so. The reason I come to this conclusion is because of your approach to the subject is inherently negative.

If desired to locate a “REAL” fighting Tai Chi person this is how I would approach it myself:

Hi everyone,

I am interested in finding and training with a Tai Chi practitioner who applies Tai Chi to real life fighting. If you do this or know of anyone who does this please contact me!

This is a friendly, open invitation designed to demonstrate true interest in a non-offensive manner. It invites response without insulting anyone or Tai Chi. There is no complaining or whining in the request. This form of request will be received better and reflects better on your character because it is ASKING and not TELLING!

I don't idly say this. Since another poster on here pointed out that long-fist, especially Plum-Flower Fist which is considered long-fist, has push-hand techniques…

I also found other articles that say that 'tai chi' as it was called, wasn't called that prior to the mid 1850s. I have footage of the so-called '13 form', the supposed original form, and it looks nothing like what Chen is passing on.

So what! Everything comes from something! Nothing comes from nothing! There are only so many ways to hit, kick, move, joint lock and throw. Some one at some point in history took what he knew and changed it to fit his perspective and needs. That is how all MA were created! You are concerning yourself with minutia that, while interesting from an intellectual perspective, is inherently unimportant when someone is trying to stick you with a knife! If it works, it works! If it doesn’t, it doesn’t! Maybe it didn’t work because you have inadequate skill or maybe because the style is inadequate, or maybe both.

Even if you believe the stories of Zhang San Feng creating tai chi, and somehow after 600 years or something it passed to the Chen village (and where is the evidence of this? I haven't found anything solid at all), it is said he took -- what style before? Shaolin.

Again, interesting historically, but still minutia!

So I don't idly say that it IMHO it is just long-fist + push-hands. You might think it is trolling, but it is not trolling.

It is your constant negative attitude that makes it appear you MAY be trolling. If you are sincerely interested in your quest:

1) Behave a bit more courteously.
2) NICLEY ask for help in your search.
3) Quit insulting those who offer you assistance in your search.
4) Take up TaiChiBob’s offer and then get back to us with a fair and honest assessment of what you find!

[neilhytholt]

TaiChiBob offered you some free lessons. Take him up on it and let us know what you think!

Dude, I'm 3000 miles away from Florida. I'm not going to go to Florida for some taiji instructor.

I've already visited several taiji instructors, and like I said before, they're just human.

They have showed me some applications, pushed me around, one threw me around, and I thought that was somehow 'special' until I ran into a hung-gar instructor who did the same things and explained to me not only how to do it, but had me doing it myself in about 15 minutes. Something they said would take years.

So I'm sorry if that's a 'negative attitude', but that's been what I've found.

Like I've already said, if I'm getting on a plane it's to go see Wong Kiew Kit.

Edit...

Furthermore, who are you guys to try to dictate my attitude? Have I attacked you? Have I said you suck? Have I said you have no skill? Have I said all taiji instructors suck and have no skill?

I advocated an opinion that I thought taiji was push-hands + longfist. And then you attack me, personally.

I said I thought Bob was advocating wushu and that taiji was a fighting art. And that doing taiji as dance was sickening, etc. But I didn't attack you.

You are attacking me, saying I have a bad attitude, etc.

Therefore, you guys should learn some wude, as it were. You think you know it all?

Anyways he said he doesn't bother with boards anymore because he thinks people have too big of egos.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

So your search is only important to you as long as it doesn't inconveniance you?

[neilhytholt]

Hi neilhytholt,

So your search is only important to you as long as it doesn't inconveniance you?

Well I have 2 kids to feed + very little spare time.

I have already done a LOT of research on taiji. IMHO it's a waste of time to travel just for some taiji teacher who may or may not be good.

Edit. So anyways the answer to your question is I don't want to be inconvenienced. Why would I want to be? What's the point?


You know, the problem here I think is that you have a different view on martial arts training, and taiji, which is like you have to kow-tow to the teacher or something and it is something that has to be earned over a long time, etc. etc. etc.

Well, I've found there are 2 basic types of teachers of martial arts. There are those that are informal, and teach you right away and there those that are formal and make you wait a long time. There are some that are formal and teach you right away, but those are rarer.

The formal ones that make you wait a long time talk about wude, etc. etc. Most of them that I've run into don't have the goods, which is why they use formal and wude to make you wait a long time. Because they want to suck $$$ out of you as long as they can or keep their position as long as they can over you.

Those types of teachers are NOT worth wasting one's time with, IMHO.

When I hear these stories of these people wasting 10 years or more and learning nothing but basic form and push-hands with a few applications, it's just so sad, so sad.

So I'm sorry if you think I have a bad attitude, but that's just what I've come across. It's not 250 years ago anymore where you have to wait to get something, where the teacher has to hold back because it's a family secret or something. If they're not teaching you the martial art and showing you applications, etc., they probably don't know it and are probably trying to string you along for all the $$$ you're worth.

I've run into too many teachers like this, so IMHO teachers who talk about wude are guilty until proven innocent.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I've already visited several taiji instructors, and like I said before, they're just human.

"several taiji instructors"? do you really believe that you can form such generalized opinions from "several" instructors?

IMHO that hippie, baby boomer generation was terrible and pitifully weak compared to the one before. Look what they're doing with the country now that they're in office. It's a total disaster.

Again, broad generalizations.. it's not the "hippies" in power, it's the Ivy League jocks.. those dandy neo-conservative religious self-righteous right-wingers.. no self-respecting "hippie" gets caught-up in that mess.. "pitifully weak "? it's easy to start a war, just ask GWB.. but to stop one, it took "hippies" and the power of "the people" (Vietnam 1975).. and, just for the record, i did my time '69-'70.. although i disagreed with the war and the ploicy, when i was drafted i didn't run.. freedom has a price, even if you don't like the cashier.. i served on the principle of this great Nation, not for its misguided leadership..

Be well...

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

"several taiji instructors"? do you really believe that you can form such generalized opinions from "several" instructors?
Again, broad generalizations.. it's not the "hippies" in power, it's the Ivy League jocks.. those dandy neo-conservative religious self-righteous right-wingers.. no self-respecting "hippie" gets caught-up in that mess.. "pitifully weak "? it's easy to start a war, just ask GWB.. but to stop one, it took "hippies" and the power of "the people" (Vietnam 1975).. and, just for the record, i did my time '69-'70.. although i disagreed with the war and the ploicy, when i was drafted i didn't run.. freedom has a price, even if you don't like the cashier.. i served on the principle of this great Nation, not for its misguided leadership..

Be well...

"IMHO that hippie, baby boomer generation was terrible and pitifully weak compared to the one before."

The set of baby boomers would include the so-called 'ivy league' people that are in office now, would it not?

Anyways, I'm done with this conversation.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The set of baby boomers would include the so-called 'ivy league' people that are in office now, would it not?

Thank you for leaving out the Hippies in that last generalization..

Be well...

[B-Rad]

Originally Posted by neilhytholt
You seem to think I'm trolling when I say that IMHO that tai chi is nothing but long fist + push-hands.

Well, you did argue the exact opposite a month ago... pretty much said you were going to end the conversation when it was suggested taiji could be considered a type of longfist. I'm sure it's just a case of you changing your mind (it happens) but you did seem to start going off about how taiji is just longfist + pushhands pretty soon after acting like it was a stupid idea and making a coment about how much the taiji people would disagree. Defenitely makes it look like you're just trolling the taiji boards, though I suppose you could just be the type of person who flip flops opinions on a whim whenever you come across a new bit of info.

I have already done a LOT of research on taiji. IMHO it's a waste of time to travel just for some taiji teacher who may or may not be good.

No you haven't Reading some online articles and visiting a few locals isn't a lot of research... at least compared to what some of the people you're arguing with have gone through. For most people to really do research on taiji they HAVE to travel. If you can't, well, that's just too bad. Find something else that interests you and stop wasting time looking for something which you wouldn't have the means to find even if it does exist.

[chud]

]I have already done a LOT of research on taiji. IMHO it's a waste of time to travel just for some taiji teacher who may or may not be good.

No you haven't Reading some online articles and visiting a few locals isn't a lot of research... at least compared to what some of the people you're arguing with have gone through. For most people to really do research on taiji they HAVE to travel.

Yep, that's me. I drive an hour and a half each way to train with my Sifu, because I feel that he's the best option. He teaches the form AND explains the applications as well. I could train locally and save myself a lot of time, but I want the best so I travel. Some things are worth it.

[neilhytholt]

Well, you did argue the exact opposite a month ago... pretty much said you were going to end the conversation when it was suggested taiji could be considered a type of longfist. I'm sure it's just a case of you changing your mind (it happens) but you did seem to start going off about how taiji is just longfist + pushhands pretty soon after acting like it was a stupid idea and making a coment about how much the taiji people would disagree. Defenitely makes it look like you're just trolling the taiji boards, though I suppose you could just be the type of person who flip flops opinions on a whim whenever you come across a new bit of info.


No you haven't Reading some online articles and visiting a few locals isn't a lot of research... at least compared to what some of the people you're arguing with have gone through. For most people to really do research on taiji they HAVE to travel. If you can't, well, that's just too bad. Find something else that interests you and stop wasting time looking for something which you wouldn't have the means to find even if it does exist.

Okay, I said I wouldn't talk about this anymore. But yes, I did think taiji was different until you pointed it out and I did more research into the form, Ziranmen, Mei Hua Chuan, Northern Mantis, Taiji Mantis, etc. Can a person change their mind? Guess not according to you.

In addition, I'm understating the # of taiji places. Several is where they actual do fighting. I've been to taiji places in Boston, Connecticut, New York, California, Oregon, Chicago, and Colorado.

If you want my REAL, unadulterated, not being nice, opinion, it is this: 99.999% of people who take taiji can't fight their way out of paper bags.

99.999% of people who take taiji (or more) are old people doing it for 'health benefit' or new age Lao Tzu wannabes. I get laughed at almost everywhere if I ask if they do tai chi fighting.

If you look at the schools where they actually do applications which is probably fewer than 1% of the places out there, most of them suck because they don't do full contact sparring.

Edit ...

You know, you guys have got to stop attacking the argumenter. That is known as a logical fallacy.

If you attack me, I'll attack back. Of course, I don't have much to attack because I don't even know you. But you somehow seem to know a lot about me, and insinuate a lot of things.

But taiji places that do actual fighting + sparring very rare compared to the places that do it as some sort of dance. Very rare, indeed.

If you look at karate places most all of them have students who can do some sparring. If you look at taiji places it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Therefore, (now I'll attack you). It's no wonder you're so defensive.

Anyway, I'm done. If you want to mis-state my position, challenge me for changing my mind, call me stupid, whatever, I'm done with the conversation.

[tjqg]

Everybody think the Tai Chi he is teaching is the real Tai chi, and that's fine, anyway, Tai Chi has been evolving all the time.

But we might tell if a Tai Chi has evolved too much from authentic Tai chi.

What's the essence of Tai Chi?

the Tai Chi classic said: Open and Close, that's all about Tai Chi.

the Tai Chi classic said: Open and Close, Empty and Solid, they are the essence of Tai Chi.

Some people don't understand Open and Close and misunderstand Empty and Solid, their Tai chi is real for sure, but not necessarily authentic.

[greendragon]

Neil... I have the opposite opinion, and not just because I am an old hippie. Most Karate practitioners I have seen cannot fight. They throw slow high kicks barely keeping their balance, They are stiff and become confused when they are beat down. Tai Chi however has some great fighters, like Peter Ralston. When I mention Tai Chi I am not talking about the many geriatric health exercise classes.
What exactly is your objective or motivation in learning martial arts ?

[tjqg]

Neil... I have the opposite opinion, and not just because I am an old hippie. Most Karate practitioners I have seen cannot fight. They throw slow high kicks barely keeping their balance, They are stiff and become confused when they are beat down. Tai Chi however has some great fighters, like Peter Ralston. When I mention Tai Chi I am not talking about the many geriatric health exercise classes.
What exactly is your objective or motivation in learning martial arts ?

I know some great Tai Chi fighters too, but they studied other martial arts before they studied Tai Chi.
I never saw a person who can fight a boxer after yang style tai chi training.
with chen style training, you may good at Fali or pushing hand, but you still can't fight a boxer.

[unkokusai]

I dunno dude, I have met some Chen Taijiquan folks who handle themselves pretty well!

[yangyang]

Like I've already said, if I'm getting on a plane it's to go see Wong Kiew Kit.

Dude if you think Wong has got the TCC goods, you better think again. From what I read, he never even had a tai chi teacher, and taught himself application from a book. Wong is a kung fu guy, not really a TCC guy.