Wing Tsun with the mantis flare!!!!!!!!!

[Shaolin Fist]

In the past different Kung Fu styles wanted an edge over other Kung Fu systems and above all they needed their own identity. To pass on their bible of knowlege they 'wrote down ' their system in the way forms or sets. Within the exterior of the Animal forms were hidden the essences of that system.

Now anyone who has ever trained extensively in the Five animals would know that the systems has a superficial 'Art' behind it, for example the tiger, crane etc. But the actually training behind the movements is Kiu Sau science. The animal part is only expressed through the intent, ie. panther work on speed and power develoment, snake on forward deflection with intent without head on resistence. Which is same as the expressions of bil, Tan, Wu, and huen sau which all use the science of forward deflecting energies. The crane element can be seen in the bong sau which 'floats' and redirects forward and pressing energies. Or the crane jong which allows one to protect centre whilst hooking or controlling just like the Fok Sau in WC.

So its not what the exterior look or shape of the hand , its what the intent of what hand is achieving. That's why we all end up speculating the meaning of forms, why are there so many interpretations enen on the SLT ?........its because we cant always see the intent or energetics behind the arm unless someone explains it to us. Just in the same way i was surprised when i was squashed by a small Gracie BJJ guy, i thought it was silly for him to lie on top of me cos i thought i would just flip him off but cos couldn't see his energy he felt twice his weight and i struggled till he eventually choked me out.

Tiger specialises in clearing, pressing, folding and it does this to trap and and close the gap. And this can be seen in the Lap Sau, Pak Sau and gum sau which is identical in most Southern systems. Behind the expression of the 'claw' is gouging, palm, grabbing, Pak, pressing chopping and so on.......... Even the Po Pai Guen from WC is no different to the tiger one. When it comes to forward close range striking, the claw changes to phoenix fist. So the Tiger system is really using the intent and the attributes of speed and ferosity, a bit like saying 'she fought like a 'Tiger' ??? . Most animal styles dont actually fight like the animal style they represent that impression was partly fueled from the likes of Golden Harvest and Shaw Brothers to sell more tickets.

What in my opinion sets WC apart from the other system is that its taking the same tools and re-packaged it to create a faster and more efficient fighting system. So the tools WC share are pretty much the same its just that the science of strategy is different. And from what i have read and seen, WC was born from the need to teach revolutionarys the skills to kill using the most efficent means. So the monks needed to take the best and most efficent from what they already had. The creators of WC didn't re-invent the wheel, they just created a F1 wheel out of one from a tractor !

I'm not here to advocate the Shaolin 'Animal' arts, but just to clarify a few points. Off course i understand if you spent years studying one system, there is not always time or the will to study others. I for one would not be in a position to judge the merits of ground fighting as i have no knowlege other than what i see in the media and through some brief interactions. So i wouldn't judge a persons ability to fight based on their forms or general physique as i feel its the fighter's ability to execute application, power and strategy that make's the real difference.

[Vajramusti]

In the past different Kung Fu styles wanted an edge over other Kung Fu systems and above all they needed their own identity.
((A broad and considerably vague overgeneralization. Everyone-a historian??))

Within the exterior of the Animal forms were hidden the essences of that system.

((Little to with wing chun- atleast what has come from Ip man))

Which is same as the expressions of bil, Tan, Wu, and huen sau which all use the science of forward deflecting energies.

((Again an overgeneralization.Many wing chun motions have their place, occasion and controls. "Forward deflecting enrgies" can be merely a verbal cliche. STRIKE!))

The crane element can be seen in the bong sau which 'floats' and redirects forward and pressing energies.
(("Float"? Would not be my first choice of words))

.

That's why we all end up speculating the meaning of forms, why are there so many interpretations enen on the SLT ?.......

((No different levels. depths and extent of learning plus ego can result in all sorts of conclusions))

Just in the same way i was surprised when i was squashed by a small Gracie BJJ guy, i thought it was silly for him to lie on top of me cos i thought i would just flip him off but cos couldn't see his energy he felt twice his weight and i struggled till he eventually choked me out.
((Your experience. Problematic in generalizing fir everyone))


And this can be seen in the Lap Sau, Pak Sau and gum sau which is identical in most Southern systems.

((Seen? Again the key is the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks use "Shaolin"" for legitimacy- doesnt mean much for analysis of the art. But you are entitled to your opinions.))

joy chaudhuri

[ChangHFY]

sunrooster, hows everything? just to state my opinion, no offense intended.
Both Tang Lang and Ving Tsun. Were considered to be created in mid to late 1600's around the time of the Qing take over. They were both created to combat the Qing. That being a fact. It would be accurate to say that they would have quite a few similarities, being that they are both considered revoulutionary systems of
combat.
Tang Lang being the culmination of 19 systems. Ving Tsun also the culmination of
quite a few Shaolin systems.
(sorry, about the mention of Shaolin. im not trying to start anything just giving my
opinion) And since the Northern Shaolin temple was established first. Which some of the Shaolin warrior monks then established the Southern Temple. To aid against pirates and threats towards the south. So there were quite a few similarities even in historys. Even going back to Wong Long in the creation of the tang lang pai.

That being aside,
personally i have studied both systems

Though the tang lang was primarily Qi Xing Tang Lang.

and Wing Chun being Ip Man and Hung Fa Yi.

Even though it was a Northern system of Mantis, I found quite a few similarities. Especially in the hand movements, chin na even some of the qigong.
Once again, sorry if I offended anybody with my opinion. (no harm intended)


take care,
zai jian

[Shaolin Fist]

Vajramusti

((A broad and considerably vague overgeneralization. Everyone-a historian??))

A broad overgeneralization i agree, but still a fact that when you go into China, every single MA style has numerous branches with their own individual stamp and family name attached to it. i dont really have to be an qualified historian to make that assumption, and i wasn't referring to a specific CMA.

((Little to with wing chun- atleast what has come from Ip man))

The point i was trying to convey across was that you cant tell what a shape is doing as you cannot see the intent or energy. And from my experience Tan sau is a pure movement rather than a shape. which means i dont need an open hand to perform the action i could perform a Tan with a fist, wrist or arm.

((Seen? Again the key is the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks use "Shaolin"" for legitimacy- doesnt mean much for analysis of the art. But you are entitled to your opinions.))

Yes i agree, i will take note to drop that Shaolin word Maybe !..........Its just if you study from teachers who say that their system are of shaolin origins, then i just take their word for it. But i did also include the broader 'Southern' term as well which maybe i should use more of. But as you rightly said its just my opinion.

[Wisdom]

((Seen? Again the key is the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks use "Shaolin"" for legitimacy- doesnt mean much for analysis of the art. But you are entitled to your opinions.))

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]


Why do people have a problem when the word “Shaolin” or anything to do with how is used?


It is a fact that Shaolin, Wu Tang and Emei Systems predate Wing Chun therefore it has to be a fact that Wing Chun would have had a major influence from these systems.

Shaolin, Wu tang and Emei practitioners would of discussed and exchanged ideas, methods and strategies with each other just like we all are here on this forum or when we have discussions with people from other systems ect.,

If Shaolin systems use the Ying Yang, five elements and eight directions which are Taoist philosophies. Wu Tang systems such as Hsing-I use “Da Mo” internal exercises for developing the layers of internal pressure leading to they ability to issue the striking force which has come from a Buddhist. This is even stated as true by Sun Lu Tang who said Hsing-I was developed from Da Mo’s internal classics.The Hakka arts have a southern Shaolin and Emei flavour which again shows dialog between practitioners of arts. The list could go on and on creating similarities between systems.

Yes all purely speculation and opinion, but if all systems of Kung Fu have to of come from somewhere. You would have to admit at least that it would seem strange that there is such a mix of the same understandings within different branches or families of cma’s, if no contact was made between them.

So stating the most likely possibility for this similarity would be that cross training and exchanging of ideas had to of taken place.

This would have to be why Sunrooster has found similarities between Wing Chun and Tong Long and Shaolin Fist understands about animal essences and their relationship to bridge energies which correspond over to Wing Chun Bridge energies it all makes perfect sense no mumbo jumbo just logic there.

So why would Wing Chun be different?

Whatever lineage of Wing Chun if you follow the history they all stem back to Shaolin. Including the Yip Man system. He even uses the legend of the Five Elders with the Wing Chun creation being due to Ng Mui a Shaolin Nun true or not it's used and he put his name to it.

So even if people state that Wing Chun is not Shaolin and that it comes from Emei then it would still have to have some form of influence form Shaolin as all the temples in China were centres' where people from all walks of life came together. So some one must have said something that made some one else think which then created an influence on what they did within their system, a ripple effect, surely. So why blank the past why not learn from it instead.

So why should people have to refrain from using the word “Shaolin” when Wing Chun had influence from Shaolin. So what’s the big problem really when you think about it, you could say Wing Chun is Shaolin, Wu Tang and Emei Kung Fu or at least influenced. Yes it’s all just labelling but them Wing Chun is a label in itself! But with out a label how are you going to know about the product! So in my opinion I don’t see the problem with using the word Shaolin. As we could all learn more about Wing Chun and CMA from it.

I hope no one takes offence as that is not what is intended.

[sihing]

[QUOTE=Wisdom
It is a fact that Shaolin, Wu Tang and Emei Systems predate Wing Chun therefore it has to be a fact that Wing Chun would have had a major influence from these systems.[/QUOTE]

Wing Chun was not influenced by the predated systems. How can a non living thing like a Martial Arts system influence anything?? Wing chun was influenced by the PEOPLE that practiced/taught those systems, not the systems themselves or how they worked. Remember,1) never be a slave to a system, and 2) no one Martial Arts system is more importanat than the individual using it.

I will tell you, with all my experience that I have had in Wing Chun, it is still my choice whether or not I use it in a fight. I control what tools I use and how I will use them, not the delivery system I have choosen to learn.

James

[Ernie]

[QUOTESo why should people have to refrain from using the word “Shaolin” .[/QUOTE]


to shoalin or not to shoalin

the reason you should not use terms like { shoalin , disciple , grandmaster , Emie , wu-tang [unless the rap group they rock ! ] 5 animal , 3rd insect , 5th brother ,,,the list goes one ,,,,etc,,,

is very simple

you sound like a fruit !

just like trekies , dungeon and dragon dweebs , renaissance fair,WW2 ,cowboy and Indians re enactors

a whole bunch of lonely people seeking acceptance with other lonely people and creating a false identity

no different the the bible thumpers that worship snakes


in the realm of combative discussion , modern training methods , science of conditioning the human body

you just can not be in any way shape of from taken seriously

no matter how bad a$$ 5th brother of master buffalo fist was fabled to be in 1604

anyone that needs to justify there combative training with a history lesson ,,,,,screams of '' I suck but let me sell you the same crap I fell for ''


hope that helps it was not met to offend just the raw honest truth

[Shaolin Fist]

I personally have no problem with hearing either side of the coin, just so long as both sides are given a equal shout so people have a more informed position to make a judement and to choose their own path. After all we are all free to wander into a MMA school and just be free of any of the history blah blah blah and get real workout in the process.

I personally like heritage and i respect culture, religion etc......... i want to know where i come from..........and i want to call my grandad.......'Grandad' and i would love to know who his grandad was ! I call my uncle.........'Uncle' and not just 'Bob'.........and address my Sifu..........'Sifu' but off course you are free to call your Sifu by his first name. I dont have a problem with rank either, so just cos you might address your Commander in Chief by his first name........i personally wouldn't !

Just as i respect different races who preserve their heritage and culture. I also respect people who give credit to their source of knowlege, Just the same way as the Gracie's acknowleged their roots. I am all ears to hearing history (factual or otherwise) on any subject but just like anyone else 'in moderation please!'

It doesn't matter if we cant proove what happened 300 years ago, we can still speculate. Just because it cant be proven that we are a direct decendant of the ape doesn't bother me as i would rather hear that than hear that i am the decendant of a species of rat !

If my son came upto me and said that a Chinaman invented electricity then i would ba happy to be in the position to correct him, just the same as i know where my tomatos originated from.

Just to coin the phrase ........No offence intended just my side of the Coin