What is the point of Tao Lu? (aka forms, kata, etc.)

[PangQuan]

i have learned 3 wushu forms, one being competition class. northern longfist wushu.

my master teaches application from our long fist. so i KNOW there is potential in the movements of wushu to be adapted to a combat training format, if you so wish.

it depends on the person whom holds the knowledge and what they choose to do with it.

the wu is meant for martial the shu is meant for play or act or art.

the derivitive is martial, to change the character from martial to dance would remove the rooted implication as to where the movements originated.

i can show you a wushu form, and i can show you the application.

no potential? says the man who knows not the applications.

[Invisible-fist]

Well, good you proclaim Wushu isn't FOR fighting not me. So in that case wouldn't it be better that Modern Wushu change the Chinese character from Wu (martial) to Wu (Dance)? That way we won't be confused and there's no need to argue for its validatity at all.

Wushu is still martial arts. The skills that it cultivates (Stances, punches, kicks, thrusts, chops) are the same. The skills are totally transferrable. If you saw basic wushu longfist next to traditional chaquan, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. They just focus on developing the athletics. The traditionalist develops low stance: the wushu player develps a stance that nearly puts his butt on the floor. The traditionalist does an iron broom sweep, the wushu player does the same sweep, but goes around two or three times.

I see wushu as being like rodeo. Rodeo is a competetive perfomance of cowboy skills. No cowboy will ever be called upon to ride a bull, but it provides a challenging test of his riding skills, just as wushu doesn’t train street fightesr but challenges skills that are used in martial arts like stances, jumps, and form.

Another analogy is miltary parade drill. At one time this was a martial art…they actually marched onto the battelfield in formation. Now it is performance and ritual. Parade drill even includes useless flourishy moves, like when they spin the rifles. This isn’t directly applicable to fighting anymore but they keep it around for tradition, and because it develops qulities in soldiers…discipline, following orders, and esprit de corps.

I do believe that wushu is excellent cross training for TMA, and many masters are proficient in both (would you call Pan “Iron Fist” Qing Fu a pansy pajama dancer?)

As far as Iaido goes, I believe it does demostrate object cutting with its forms which contain the 4 elements of sword drawing.

My point was that Iaido is obsolete, unless you walk around with a sword on your hip. People don’t study Iaido to learn how to fight.

According to the limited and brainwashed perspective of Modern Wushu perhaps. Because as you stated there is no potential for fighting in Wushu.

Also according to the limited and brainwashed perspective of MMA. No MMA trainer that I’m aware of trains forms.


Quote:
2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.

Sorry, I think you might have confused the feel good ego masturbation in spectator sports with spirituality.

There is also “feel good ego masturbation” in performing compliant drills and fantasizing about being teh D3adly.

You seem to feel that sport cannot be spiritual. I don’t think that’s true. I don’t play golf, but I’ve been told that it is fantastic for developing Zen Mind. I know that its true for pool…the mind must be empty at the moment of the shot. A Zen Buddhist friend of mine recommended a book called “the Inner Game of Tennis” as one of the best books on Zen.

If in fact Modern Wushu is a sport how is it possible that it has qualities that other sports won't get? Sport is sport or am I missing something here?

Every sport is different.

I believe that there is something very special about Chinese Martial Arts that you don’t get in other movement disciplines. You develop low stance, fluid movement, deep chi, and a particular type of neuromuscular awareness. CMA reeducates the entire organism in a way that you just don’t get in other martial arts.

You mentioned ballet. Ballet is a VERY different discipline from wushu. Ballet has extremely western style movement: The joints are locked out, the chi is carried high, and the movements are stiff and precise.


Quote:
Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour.

Call it what you will. It's fragmentation by sportification of Chinese martial academia.

What do you mean by that?

You have stated Modern Wushu isn't for fighting and it's a sport how the hack it became martial and arts again? It's like a dog that's chasing its tail. There's no end to it. Man, I think you need to sort out your terms and definitions before you start arguing any further.

Its simple: Martial arts are Not Just About Fighting. This isn’t a modern development.

Most JMA had become tools of spiritual endeavor and cultural transmission by the time of the Edo period.

Kung Fu was developed to teach meditation to monks.

CMA as performance art goes WAAY back. Probably to the peaceful Song Dynasty.

Most people don’t take T’ai Chi to learn how to fight. Same with Iaido. Even Aikido.

If martial arts are just about fighting, and the measure of a martial art is how well it fights, then we should just abolish all martial arts and turn them into MMA. (Which is what Bullshido seems to be advocating)


CONTINUED

[Invisible-fist]

The assumption about traditional training is so flaw that I don't where to begin. If that's the line your modern Wushu "coaches" selling you then so be it.

What asssumption am I making about traditional training and why is it flawed?

What did Bruce Lee once said? I paraphrase "Biting is a good tool in close quartered combat but don't make a plan of biting some one or it's a sure way to lose all your teeth." No sound training methodology in traditional Kung Fu that I have came across ever taught or confused the so called "street tactics" or dirty tricks as the delivery system. This is a myth that's perpetuated by Mcdojo, Mckwoon and Master wanabe. It is a stigma that legit traditional Kung Fu people has to endure.

Sorry. I should have said sport fighters beat TMA’ers.

BTW, you are right that sport is good, it does raise the level of athleticism. I never say that sport is bad. If Wushu wants to be a sport and stay as a sport that's find by me.

That’s all I’m saying. TMA’ers putting down wushu is just as dumb as MMA’ers putting down TMA. They are different things, working on different projects. Martial Arts is a house with many mansions.

But please don't let those Wushu brainwashed idiots to compare real and legit Kung Fu teachers to barbars, cooks, just about anyone else (not that I am class divisive or a snob).

Compare them to barbers and cooks? What do you mean?

Kung Fu as an authentic Chinese martial arts is a distinct tradition that is developed and evolved since thousands of years in China. So please at least give those people some credit and respect.

Definitely. I have tremendous respect for TCMA. Also for MMA. They are all different things with different goals, they should be able to coexist.

So you are telling me that you and everyone else in Wushu are Chinese?

Of course not. I said “most” not “all”.

You know all things Chinese culture?

Dude, NOBODY knows all things Chinese culture.

Would you care to share you view on Chinese culture with us then? Why is there Buddhism in Kung Fu when clearly we can simply go with Daoism and Confucius ideas?

Well kung fu was developed by Buddhists, by the founder of Zen, as a buddhist practice. So martial arts and Buddhism are intricately intertwined. Buddhism, and Ch’an in particular was a popular religion for warriors: the cultivation of Zen Mind was percieved of as being excellent training for warrior skills…a mind trained by meditation could shoot straighter. Also the buddhist philosophy of non-attatchment produced a fearlessness in the face of death.

Taoism produced its own martial arts: the Wudang internal family of MA. These are very different from the Buddhist Shaolin tradition. One is external, the other internal. Aside from this, the movement quality of the two is very different.

Confucianism is irrelevant. It focusses on societal pietas, rather than personal spiritual development. Confucianism permeates Chinese society, and is present in martial culture, but there are no Confucian martial arts.

Doing it well means what? It's like asking kids (not saying that you are) about Hockey "what do you like about hockey?" They would say," oh I can skate hard and I can go hard at it, it's fun." "So what exactly do you like about hockey?". "I can go really really fast on skates, it's fun." And they go on and on the samething about a silly game that means nothing.

The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao.

Quote:
There’s PLENTY of mind, body, and spirit development in wushu.


So you are telling us. But where is the illustration?

Stand in a horse stance for an hour, and you will develop qi, whether you want to or not.

I guess David Copperfield or any member of the Circque du Solie knows Qi very well too.

Well copperfields a hack, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the cirque guys had good qi. In the original sense of the word, they have good “kung fu.”

No offense to Master Tu, I would rather spend time on rolling around in the hay with a girl then to learn to tie my balls up for an extended period of time.

You and me both! : O

Let's face it and be honest. Wushu, Master Tu's specialty and not to mention the shinny trophies from the Wushu tournaments are drawing people into your school and this is why you are selling it. Just be frank, no need for beating around the bush, my friend. It's America no one would fault you on commericalism. If we have a market for Taebo or cardio Kickboxing in my area, I would have included it in my school too. But then I don't have a commerical school so...

I’m not running a school, I’m a student. But I don’t think wushu is particularly commercial. If you want commercialism, you want Karotty or TKD. Master Tu has nothing to do with it, we’re separate schools, he just happens to be tight with my teachers. (They train his kids).

[WinterPalm]

I think that Mantis108 just defeated wushu!

[Invisible-fist]

I think that Mantis108 just defeated wushu!

Not tillhe responds to my last post.

[mantis108]

Sorry, I have been busy the last couple of days. Here it goes...

Wushu is still martial arts. The skills that it cultivates (Stances, punches, kicks, thrusts, chops) are the same. The skills are totally transferrable. If you saw basic wushu longfist next to traditional chaquan, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. They just focus on developing the athletics. The traditionalist develops low stance: the wushu player develps a stance that nearly puts his butt on the floor. The traditionalist does an iron broom sweep, the wushu player does the same sweep, but goes around two or three times.

Have you heard of the old expression "painting legs onto a picture of a snake"? That's what your so called "athletic attributes" are about. The point is whoever created modern Wushu can't really improve on the truth/Kung Fu (the snake). So they draw a painting of a snake (modern wushu) but still they can't improve on the original; thus they painted on the legs (athletic attributes) just to make the snake seems better. Now, artistic licensing is fine (to a certain extend). Altering the truth altogether is a serious misconduct. The "skills" that are developed by MWS DO NOT directly translated into fighting skills. This is why MWS can't fight and you will need to learn a TOTALLY DIFFERENT set of fighting skills (ie San Shou) if you do MWS. This is not traditional training which is based on unification not isolation. The athletic attribute that you desire is the end and is a limited one. You are justifying the means with the end.

I see wushu as being like rodeo. Rodeo is a competetive perfomance of cowboy skills. No cowboy will ever be called upon to ride a bull, but it provides a challenging test of his riding skills, just as wushu doesn’t train street fightesr but challenges skills that are used in martial arts like stances, jumps, and form.

I came to this "debate" with you because you said Modern Wushu can dance circles around traditional guys implying that MWS can fight and would be more efficient. Now you said that it doesn't train people to fight. This dance or rather challenge skills as you call it that has nothing to do with fighting should be discerned by a different character "Wu/dance" not "Wu/Martial". End of story. BTW, I am not much of a cowboy but is that a "bull riding form" in Rodeo? How the heck can you draw that analogy?

Another analogy is miltary parade drill. At one time this was a martial art…they actually marched onto the battelfield in formation. Now it is performance and ritual. Parade drill even includes useless flourishy moves, like when they spin the rifles. This isn’t directly applicable to fighting anymore but they keep it around for tradition, and because it develops qulities in soldiers…discipline, following orders, and esprit de corps.

I don't know much about western military exercises. But I have read ancient Chinese record that indicate there might just be "form" on the battlefield that was used to express the ferocity of the troops and to intimidate the opponents. "form" training evidently still pretty much alive in Ming dynasty (1368-1644 CE) military training. Much of the so called "Southern Shaolin" might have big military influence. Hand to hand combat plays little part in the grand schemes of modern warfare. It's rather meaningless to use that analogy here.

I do believe that wushu is excellent cross training for TMA, and many masters are proficient in both (would you call Pan “Iron Fist” Qing Fu a pansy pajama dancer?)

With all due respect to "Iron Fist" Pan, no offense, I won't call a person parading around with deformed knuckles smart master either.

My point was that Iaido is obsolete, unless you walk around with a sword on your hip. People don’t study Iaido to learn how to fight.

Iaido is no more obsolete than any other TMA or MA (ie Wushu by your definition) for that matter. So... What's the point to bring that up in the first place.

Also according to the limited and brainwashed perspective of MMA. No MMA trainer that I’m aware of trains forms.

Ah... but TCMA have both form and fighting not form or fighting. It is logically more than likely that TCMA understand both end of the spectrum better than other paths. This is why TCMA is a sound choice and perhaps even a better choice than Modern Wushu just for that reason alone IMHO.

Quote:
2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.

There is also “feel good ego masturbation” in performing compliant drills and fantasizing about being teh D3adly.

You seem to feel that sport cannot be spiritual. I don’t think that’s true. I don’t play golf, but I’ve been told that it is fantastic for developing Zen Mind. I know that its true for pool…the mind must be empty at the moment of the shot. A Zen Buddhist friend of mine recommended a book called “the Inner Game of Tennis” as one of the best books on Zen.

Every sport is different.

The more I read about your arguments. The more I find that you like to justify the means with the end. The Zen Mind that you talked about or rather you read about is a technique or spiritual mean if you will which you perceived as the end. You use that to justify your argument of spirituality in sport/art/whatever. It is a window to look inside the house not the house itself. So please don't confuse the issue. I think you will have to provide some tangible insights from your beloved Wushu in order for us to see the "elusive" or at present secondary report of spirituality supposedly found within it.

I believe that there is something very special about Chinese Martial Arts that you don’t get in other movement disciplines. You develop low stance, fluid movement, deep chi, and a particular type of neuromuscular awareness. CMA reeducates the entire organism in a way that you just don’t get in other martial arts.

Oh, I agreed if it is TCMA. Modern Wushu fail to qualify for the job because it is lacking in every aspect - it is a drawing of a snake with legs no more no less.

You mentioned ballet. Ballet is a VERY different discipline from wushu. Ballet has extremely western style movement: The joints are locked out, the chi is carried high, and the movements are stiff and precise.

Funny you just described a vivid picture of Wushu form for me.

Quote:
Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour.

What do you mean by that?

It is the PRC's intention to break down, dumb down and water down that scholarly studies of martial arts which is an ancient tradition of China. PRC would want to have nothing to do with tradition and free thinking scholars under the vision of Mao. This politically motivated directive is behind the fragmentation by sportification of martial academia. Coupling with equating martial artists with cooks, taxi drivers, or any grass root level trade, martial arts is but a dumb down "sport". It may be cool to you and to those who don't like to exercise the most important muscle between the ears, but it's just gut wrenching to see people being fool by that.

Its simple: Martial arts are Not Just About Fighting. This isn’t a modern development.

Most JMA had become tools of spiritual endeavor and cultural transmission by the time of the Edo period.

sorry short on time to argue about that point. May come back to it later.

Kung Fu was developed to teach meditation to monks.

Any other assumption that's faulty.

CMA as performance art goes WAAY back. Probably to the peaceful Song Dynasty.

Song dynasty peaceful? Wow, do you study Chinese history at all?

Most people don’t take T’ai Chi to learn how to fight. Same with Iaido. Even Aikido.

Most people are uninformed or misinformed. It's not a good enough reason to again use the end to justify the mean IMHO.

If martial arts are just about fighting, and the measure of a martial art is how well it fights, then we should just abolish all martial arts and turn them into MMA. (Which is what Bullshido seems to be advocating)


CONTINUED

Here's spirituality 101, my friend. There are many degrees of truth. Form training is like the wave of conciousness; while fighting is like the particle of it. Either one exists without the other. A martial training that cover one area is not providing a complete and thorough picture to the full potential of martial arts. Please don't justify the means with the perceived end.

More to come later...

Mantis108

[mantis108]

What asssumption am I making about traditional training and why is it flawed?

Quote:
If they wanted to produce elite athletes, they had to separate the two. This was a smart decision. This way they were able to improve their fighting by adopting modern methods without losing the cultural and artistic value of forms training.

You know when I read this it reminded me of the movie "San Da" by Tsui Hak. It is a moive to promote San Shou the sport so it make the scripted assumption that traditional Kung Fu stylist can't fight and it got beat by the San Shou fighters because they are "better" fighters that train with "modern methods". In all fairness, those who have never seen or never been taught in the classical way. We have now a bunch of generation X, Y or Z that have more interest in instant gratification that allow the end to justify the end. The classical way places the steps or method above results. It is the journey not just the destination that completes us. Without this understanding, there is no Chinese martial arts. The sports that you rave abot is already a lot cause. As soon as you started to accept the end to justify the means (modern methods) you have already fundamentally lost the cultural and artistic value of forms training.

Sorry. I should have said sport fighters beat TMA’ers.

Really? sport fighters as in San Shou? You are entitled to your opinion. But I think you are very much ill informed. But that's not your fault. I would say it's the propaganda BS by the sport promoters. I have seen and experienced traditional body weight, impact, equipment, drills, etc training that even reasonably athletic people have problem with. Not to mention the fight training. Actually some of those can be found in "modern training" as well. So I would not make any assumption about the "weakness" of legit traditional fighters.

That’s all I’m saying. TMA’ers putting down wushu is just as dumb as MMA’ers putting down TMA. They are different things, working on different projects. Martial Arts is a house with many mansions.

IMHO TCMA has every right to put down Wushu although most of the TCMA people won't bother to speak out as I would. Wushu is a cheap inmitation of the real original. Why should a knock off that infringes on the legitimacy of martial academia which is an unique heritage of Chinese culture that can be shared by and benefit the world? Why should it occupy the lime light? Riding on the tail coat of a brand name is one thing. Infringing on or even altering intellectual property is another.

Compare them to barbers and cooks? What do you mean?

Check the interviews with Jet Li and other mainland "Wushu" people.

Definitely. I have tremendous respect for TCMA. Also for MMA. They are all different things with different goals, they should be able to coexist.

Coexist, sure I couldn't care less about what people want or like to do. It is a free world. I have respect for all "martial arts" providing it is indeed a martial art. But I don't appreciate the fact that ignorant comments from ignorant, ill-infromed individual (not saying you are) about all things concerning TCMA. If they don't understand it or have not experienced in first hand, please please STFU.

Of course not. I said “most” not “all”.

Dude, NOBODY knows all things Chinese culture.

Ok, I am going to let this slide.

Well kung fu was developed by Buddhists, by the founder of Zen, as a buddhist practice. So martial arts and Buddhism are intricately intertwined. Buddhism, and Ch’an in particular was a popular religion for warriors: the cultivation of Zen Mind was percieved of as being excellent training for warrior skills…a mind trained by meditation could shoot straighter. Also the buddhist philosophy of non-attatchment produced a fearlessness in the face of death.

Well, I think you are properly a bit too busy in doing your physically challenging Wushu moves that you don't bother much to do reality checking with story like the one that you mentioned. But if that's your believe, that's find by me.

Taoism produced its own martial arts: the Wudang internal family of MA. These are very different from the Buddhist Shaolin tradition. One is external, the other internal. Aside from this, the movement quality of the two is very different.

*sigh* More flawed assumptions. I don't think it's your fault though. I think it's lies in the guidence or rather lack there of from your coach that's the problem.

Confucianism is irrelevant. It focusses on societal pietas, rather than personal spiritual development. Confucianism permeates Chinese society, and is present in martial culture, but there are no Confucian martial arts.

Confucianism is irrelevant? Do you have any idea of the impact and influence that it has on the Chinese military and civilian Kung Fu, and subsequently the martial arts manuscripts that came from there? BTW, do you know that Confucius was known to carry swords and promoted archery as a "gentlemen's sport"? Are you aware that there is an militant faction of Confuciansim spinned off to become what is known as Mo Jia?

The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao.

Stand in a horse stance for an hour, and you will develop qi, whether you want to or not.

I am simply lost of words. ...

Well copperfields a hack, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the cirque guys had good qi. In the original sense of the word, they have good “kung fu.”

So now traditional stylists are equivalent to clowns and cirque folks...

You and me both! : O

I’m not running a school, I’m a student. But I don’t think wushu is particularly commercial. If you want commercialism, you want Karotty or TKD. Master Tu has nothing to do with it, we’re separate schools, he just happens to be tight with my teachers. (They train his kids).

I appreciate the dialogue and enjoy the debate. I would like to say that I have nothing personal against you, your school, and any other masters. If my attitude and comments are harsh and offensive to you, I apologize to you. I just can't not stand by and let misinformation and assumption about Kung Fu unchallenged, and taken as facts.

Regards

Mantis108