New book on Chung Moo Quan/Ooom Yung Doe

[Royal Dragon]

WOW, I just finished reading the book Herding the Moo!! It was a
fascinating story about the inner workings of the cult and the con,
and the maniacal control John C Kim had over his followers.

I have to say, it chronicled the entire Moo career process from start
to finish in a very detailed, and concise way. This is a book I am
recommending for everyone, not just people involved. You have GOT to read this!

It’s cheap too! You can find the book on www.trafford.com/06-0269

[Mas Judt]

Just ordered it. I find these guys really entertaining...

I found whoists response kind of odd "It's not like one person's life is somehow more significant than anothers."

I don't think that is the point at all, rather it is someone telling a cautionary, true story that actually happened to them. Of course it is more interesting that the life of the toll-booth guy who lives with his mom and whacks off to comic books. Some lives are interesting - sometimes for good reasons, bad reasons, tragic reasons, whatever.

Does this make them significant? Sure. What's the big deal?

[Fu-Pow]

Its good that its out there, at least it will help bring awareness to the problem.

[chud]

Looks like an interesting book.

[Royal Dragon]

It is an interesting book. Personally, I think everyone in the Chicago martial arts scene should read it. we had to put up with them for many years as this was originally "Moo central".

[Donkwoon]

I clicked on that link to buy the book but shipping was $20. I'll look elsewhere.

[Royal Dragon]

I thik it is on Amazon too, if not it soon will be.

[KC Elbows]

A couple things I found interesting about the book:

-every time the up and coming students get a respite from the turmoil from above, those above are still experiencing the turmoil, more than suggesting a trickle down of abuse from the top.

-Some of the experiences are so eerily close to mine, but predating them by several years, and some explain things I saw that made no sense at the time.

-I could see the authors thoughts "detoxing" in the work- not chronologically, as the sections weren't all written in that order, but I could see which sections are still rife with his earlier cult-think, and his placement of those sections made the end fascinating. Hard to explain, but the longer one is out, the less one empowers the grandmaster and begins to view him as pathetic, not powerfully evil.

Aditionally, knowing many of those written about, I really get to know them better, whether that makes them more noble or more pathetic dependent on who we're talking about.

The half way mark really is where I found I couldn't put it down anymore.

[neilhytholt]

But why did you get into it in the first place? Did you never take any other martial arts?

I went to that place when it was still going strong, I guess, in 1999 or something, and they had a lot of students. They claimed to teach all these styles but it was evident after 5 minutes they were fake because a) that picture where they claimed he jumped off of a 30 story building or something (with no backup), b) their high pressure tactics, and c) the fact that they didn't seem to do any of their moves well.

It is just weird that anybody would fall for that kind of a pitch. Or maybe because I had run into cultish martial arts groups before (Steven Hayes), it was more obvious?

[Royal Dragon]

When I signed up, I wanted to learn Kung Fu, and they claimed to teach it. I didn't know anything about martial arts. I didn't last long though, and I have the distinction of being the ONLY one they ever actually kicked out.

[neilhytholt]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I met somebody else who fell for their tactics and spent something like $20k. But he did this even after it was pasted all over the Internet about them.

I guess most people don't do research or shop around. It's hard to believe that place is still in business. Last time I visted one of them they had somebody with 2 years of experience teaching the classes.

I guess my first sifu spoiled me with high standards in martial arts and no contracts and no B.S.

[Royal Dragon]

The martial arts is front, you go in there looking for martial arts, and they slowly brain wash you into being in thier cult. it's a slow process, you don't realise it is happening, untill it is too late.

Read the book, you cn see it happening to the main charecter step, by step.

[neilhytholt]

The martial arts is front, you go in there looking for martial arts, and they slowly brain wash you into being in thier cult. it's a slow process, you don't realise it is happening, untill it is too late.

Read the book, you cn see it happening to the main charecter step, by step.

Nobody gets brain washed into a cult. You have to decide for yourself if the group is for you or not.

There's nothing wrong by nature with so-called 'cults'. All groups, religious, governmental, schools, etc., are basically 'cults', meaning they have a doctrine, they have members, they have a methodology, leaders, etc.

Is it better to be living in teepees or huts? Or is it better having computers and cars?

The current thinking in the U.S. is libs vs. cons. A false dichotomy, but most people have been so-called 'brainwashed' into believing it.

There is no such thing as brainwashing. The problem is most people don't think about what's going on. Most people are sheep. Most people just follow the leader, the T.V., etc.

So I don't have any sympathy for people who supposedly 'fell' for it. If they didn't get out of it what they wanted to, and they didn't walk, then they were just bad shoppers is all.

I mean, geesh, I've 'belonged' to a couple of so-called martial arts 'cult' groups. Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu, Bujinkan and Steven Hayes. The training was fine, but once they trotted out their brand of religious worship, I walked, as I should have.

[KC Elbows]

There may not be such a thing as brainwashing, but there certainly is such a thing as cognitive dissonance, which is heavily at play in such groups.

As for cultishness, none of the groups you mention compare with the chung moo system back in the day in regards to their cultishness. The book sums up a lot of grueling workouts, a lot of actual fights are mentioned, beatings are also covered. When the neighboring schools are point sparring factories, the former street fighter cult members comes off as tough, even if they really doesn't have skill.

Additionally, you've again mentioned that you had past experience and the internet. When I was in, I had no experience and there was no internet. Back then, people who left often got visits at their houses and threats. This is not about what style they were doing, but what they were willing to do.

As for your cult schpiel, cults certainly tend to be more often called as much if they have serious negative behavior attached to them. The book defines that, and how it works is not similar to the "lib/con" dynamic in most cases. People believe such things as libs all being one way because it is lazy thinking, people follow cults LONG TERM because it takes them time to accept that their efforts have all been fruitless. That you feel such people are beneath you is your business, but it is good that some have a deeper understanding of what makes groups that extreme.

There is one scene in the book where the leader seems to come dangerously close to suggesting something Jim Jones like. This is completely different than a simple con. You should be happy that former dupes who were moral enough to greatly limit that man's power chose to do so instead of allowing him to continue as he was. The school you saw in '99 was a shadow of the old school, '99 was well past the prime of these schools and the cult leader was still in prison and the school's excesses were well hidden by that point.

As for the flying pic, when I was in it was some time before they labelled it as flying, and by then, you were already invested in the cult thinking.

Simple con:
Stealing a man's money

Cult:
1) Steal his money
2) tell him to give you his health insurance money, if he gets sick you'll be sure to cure him.
3) Watch him dying of cancer and then unnecessarily tell him that he's being selfish for asking for your help.

Both are criminal, the second is pathological.

The book covers how those there were being dupes, your judgement is less informed on that front than the author's, the book is not about ignoring the foibles of those dupes, but in defining how they wake up, and what they wake up to, both far more useful to the reader than simple judgement.

[KC Elbows]

I mean, geesh, I've 'belonged' to a couple of so-called martial arts 'cult' groups. Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu, Bujinkan and Steven Hayes. The training was fine, but once they trotted out their brand of religious worship, I walked, as I should have.

Since you put quotes around cult, you don't believe those groups were cults.

Reasons this group at the time of the book is nothing like those you describe:

1) Those groups don't choose your wife
2) Those groups don't keep you from taking vacations
3) Those groups don't require you to drop your friends
4) Those groups don't make you take public defenders so that the grandmaster can use money from the schools you run to hire lawyers while he tells you your defense is all taken care of, as happened to the ones who went down with Kim
5) Those schools don't have their grandmaster fleeing from an apparent accidental drowning and having his underlings ommiting this information from the police when they arrive
6) Those schools don't have people using the drowned man's license years later for unknown purposes.

The author was prime pickings, his whole family was dead by the time he was a very young man, he had no one to teach him these things that you find it foolish for people not to know.

I'm sure you can see cause for empathy for his situation and interest in seeing such a person make good and speak the truth so that others don't get duped. You were luckier than him. You will never know if, in his shoes, you would have done any differently, because you will never be in that position.